Did anyone just see that Obama speech?

[Jordon]

I never said it was not an important factor I said to decide on this alone or make comments like Telephant said are immature and stupid. I am the opposite of you I would prefer the country founded on In God We Trust stay away from being led by atheist, you can go to a communist or socialist country for that. However I see a lot of individuals that would like to make America into such a country! I agree with the USA being a free country and knowing of these Atheist makes me want to keep the right to bear arms.

You contradict yourself in this post. And where did I say someones religion affiliation dictated my choice in candidate? I didnt. In fact I made it pretty clear that it didnt.

Atheist makes me want to keep the right to bear arms.

And my comments are immature? Hypocrisy FTL.

Hahaha I know, right? As if the lack of/a different religion makes someone unstable. I know plenty of unstable religious people.

 

[ttosh]

I never said it was not an important factor I said to decide on this alone or make comments like Telephant said are immature and stupid. I am the opposite of you I would prefer the country founded on In God We Trust stay away from being led by atheist, you can go to a communist or socialist country for that. However I see a lot of individuals that would like to make America into such a country! I agree with the USA being a free country and knowing of these Atheist makes me want to keep the right to bear arms.

You contradict yourself in this post. And where did I say someones religion affiliation dictated my choice in candidate? I didnt. In fact I made it pretty clear that it didnt.

Atheist makes me want to keep the right to bear arms.

And my comments are immature? Hypocrisy FTL.

We could keep going back and forth, but it would be so much more interesting to actually discuss their agenda's. And yes your comments are immature and mine are well thought out. That is just the way it is.

 

[Telephant]

We could keep going back and forth, but it would be so much more interesting to actually discuss their agenda's. And yes your comments are immature and mine are well thought out. That is just the way it is.

Yeah circular reasoning, contradicting yourself... Real thought out.

 

[Anonymous]

I will not comment on gay marriage but I think it is pretty obvious that drugs and prostitution can hurt others as well as the ones involved.

Please... who does prostitution hurt? It is a victimless crime.

Drugs only hurt the people taking them. You could argue that it hurts their friends, but to me, you always have the choice of finding another friend. Hurting someone emotionally because you are killing yourself is not illegal last I checked. Of course, driving on drugs would hurt others and should be illegal. However, if drugs were legal, the price would go down and it could be regulated and taxed. 90%+ of the people in jail are there because they dealt drugs either to support their habits or because it was lucrative, or they committed other crimes to support their habits. This would be mostly eliminated. Making drugs illegal causes more harm than good.

Steve

 

[Telephant]

Please... who does prostitution hurt? It is a victimless crime.

Drugs only hurt the people taking them. You could argue that it hurts their friends, but to me, you always have the choice of finding another friend. Hurting someone emotionally because you are killing yourself is not illegal last I checked. Of course, driving on drugs would hurt others and should be illegal. However, if drugs were legal, the price would go down and it could be regulated and taxed. 90%+ of the people in jail are there because they dealt drugs either to support their habits or because it was lucrative, or they committed other crimes to support their habits. This would be mostly eliminated. Making drugs illegal causes more harm than good.

Steve

I agree. And arguing drugs is ridiculous when alcohol (the most destructive drug on the planet) and prescription drugs are legal.

 

[ejecta]

Please... who does prostitution hurt? It is a victimless crime.

Drugs only hurt the people taking them. You could argue that it hurts their friends, but to me, you always have the choice of finding another friend. Hurting someone emotionally because you are killing yourself is not illegal last I checked. Of course, driving on drugs would hurt others and should be illegal. However, if drugs were legal, the price would go down and it could be regulated and taxed. 90%+ of the people in jail are there because they dealt drugs either to support their habits or because it was lucrative, or they committed other crimes to support their habits. This would be mostly eliminated. Making drugs illegal causes more harm than good.

Steve

So drug addicts dont hurt their family? Prostition doesnt hurt the familes of the johns or the prostitute? There are alot of psychologists and data out there that would say that your assertion that drugs and prostition "only hurt the person doing it" really doesnt really hold water. You can choose to change your friends but you can choose to stop loving a son or daughter or parent who has made the choice to ruin thier life with drugs or prostition.

 

[badger71]

I have to disagree that religion is not an important factor. For me it is. I just happen to prefer leaders that do not believe in imaginary superheros. Unfortunately, I am rarely presented with the opportunity to vote for someone who doesn't have blind faith in fairy tales created by men. I think that is all that was being said. All thing being equal, I'd choose an atheist... someone who would be practical about abortion, drugs, prostitution, gay marriage, stem cell research and all the other supposedly "morally wrong" things

Steve

I agree.

 

[Telephant]

Please... who does prostitution hurt? It is a victimless crime.

Drugs only hurt the people taking them. You could argue that it hurts their friends, but to me, you always have the choice of finding another friend. Hurting someone emotionally because you are killing yourself is not illegal last I checked. Of course, driving on drugs would hurt others and should be illegal. However, if drugs were legal, the price would go down and it could be regulated and taxed. 90%+ of the people in jail are there because they dealt drugs either to support their habits or because it was lucrative, or they committed other crimes to support their habits. This would be mostly eliminated. Making drugs illegal causes more harm than good.

Steve

So drug addicts dont hurt their family? Prostition doesnt hurt the familes of the johns or the prostitute? There are alot of psychologists and data out there that would say that your assertion that drugs and prostition "only hurt the person doing it" really doesnt really hold water. You can choose to change your friends but you can choose to stop loving a son or daughter or parent who has made the choice to ruin thier life with drugs or prostition.

So why isnt alcohol illegal? It should be about regulation, not illegality.

 

[ejecta]

So why isnt alcohol illegal? It should be about regulation, not illegality.

Alcohol isnt illegal because the largest AA meeting in the country happens on capitiol hill. It's true. My point with saying that is that I know for a fact from a good friend of my parents that alcohol is big part of the poltical scene in Washington. My view is if people cant do things responsibly like drinking casually .... maybe smoking little weed, not getting wasted but still take care of business with their famliy and jobs etc then fine. But if you cant and alot of people cant then yes it shuold be illegal. Also drugs like cocaine, heroin, LSD, perscrition drugs etc that have been proven that you cant use within reason and those should stay illegal IMHO because they harm so many people, incuding the ones using who I care about too.

All that said... my MAIN point is that morality has its place in society and helps to great extent. I found that most who talk about people who make laws getting on thier "moral high ground" are typically doing something they know is wrong and dont like it that there is a law against it.

 

[Anonymous]

That is a pretty HUGE overgeneralization of what it means to legislate morality. The things you mentioned can all be covered by one rule - don't do things that will hurt someone else. The real issues of legislating morality have to do with why drugs, prostitution, gay marriage, etc are illegal. These are purely morality issues. There is no reason these things should be illegal...
Steve

So stealing, raping, and all the things I mentioned are not immoral acts? So as long as it doenst hurt someone else huh? Tell the kids of a crack head or a heroin addict that their parents addiction isnt really hurting them. Tell a wife a husband who gets a prostitute that her husbands action isnt hurting her. Tell the mom or dad of the prostitute that their daughter's actions arent hurting them. The gay marriage thing... to be honest I could care less one way or the other. But your assertion that stealing doesnt have anything to do with morality and a heroin user is ok makes no sense to me. My point with all that is this.... you have to have laws based on a moral code whether you like it or not other wise who have laws based on cose that is realtive and trust me you dont want that. Also like it or not our founding fathers based many of the laws we have on biblical morality.

You're losing me here. I said raping and stealing should be illegal because you are hurting someone else. Where do we diagree?

The kids of crack and heroin addicts... Hmmm... kids get beaten and molested all the time by sober parents. Also alcoholics hurt their children and alcohol isn't illegal. What you are missing is that the behavior of hurting a child is illegal and I support that. Anytime you physically hurt or endanger a child, or frankly, any individual, what you are doing should be illegal. Demonizing crack and heroin by themselves and making them illegal, however, is a waste of time. It doesn't stop the behavior and it only adds to society's problems...

What does a prostitute have to do with a cheating husband? Are you really serious with this logic? The act of prostitution should be illegal because it causes husbands to cheat? C'mon, man... Cheaters will always find a way to cheat and they don't have to pay prostitutes to do it. Maybe we should make fucking outside of marriage illegal, huh? Geez man - you are SO proving my point about legislating morality and you don't even realize it. Maybe we should stick to discussing guitars and amps...

I never said stealing wasn't a moral issue. What I said was that making something ILLEGAL should be based on whether you are physically hurting or endangering others by your actions. Stealing physically hurts the person who is the victim by removing their property.

I don"t give a shit what the founding fathers based this countries laws on - we have a right to change them.

 

[Anonymous]

Please... who does prostitution hurt? It is a victimless crime.

Drugs only hurt the people taking them. You could argue that it hurts their friends, but to me, you always have the choice of finding another friend. Hurting someone emotionally because you are killing yourself is not illegal last I checked. Of course, driving on drugs would hurt others and should be illegal. However, if drugs were legal, the price would go down and it could be regulated and taxed. 90%+ of the people in jail are there because they dealt drugs either to support their habits or because it was lucrative, or they committed other crimes to support their habits. This would be mostly eliminated. Making drugs illegal causes more harm than good.

Steve

So drug addicts dont hurt their family? Prostition doesnt hurt the familes of the johns or the prostitute? There are alot of psychologists and data out there that would say that your assertion that drugs and prostition "only hurt the person doing it" really doesnt really hold water. You can choose to change your friends but you can choose to stop loving a son or daughter or parent who has made the choice to ruin thier life with drugs or prostition.

Dude... sigh... As far as I understand it, at this point it is not illegal to cause your family emotional stress because you are a drug addict. Making drugs illegal doesn't stop this from happening. Demonizing drugs doesn't stop it. Alcoholics cause their families much emotional stress, however, they don't go to jail for posessing alcohol. Husbands that screw around on their wives (without paying a prostitute) cause much emotional stress to their families when they are found out, yet they aren't being locked up for it. Your point makes no sense. Once again, by your logic, we should make it illegal for a married man to fuck anyone else other than his wife 'cause he might get caught and hurt her feelings... THAT is what I mean by legislating morality and I don't like it...

Do you get it now?

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

So why isnt alcohol illegal? It should be about regulation, not illegality.

Alcohol isnt illegal because the largest AA meeting in the country happens on capitiol hill. It's true. My point with saying that is that I know for a fact from a good friend of my parents that alcohol is big part of the poltical scene in Washington. My view is if people cant do things responsibly like drinking casually .... maybe smoking little weed, not getting wasted but still take care of business with their famliy and jobs etc then fine. But if you cant and alot of people cant then yes it shuold be illegal. Also drugs like cocaine, heroin, LSD, perscrition drugs etc that have been proven that you cant use within reason and those should stay illegal IMHO because they harm so many people, incuding the ones using who I care about too.

All that said... my MAIN point is that morality has its place in society and helps to great extent. I found that most who talk about people who make laws getting on thier "moral high ground" are typically doing something they know is wrong and dont like it that there is a law against it.

You're right, making drugs illegal is REALLY working! People aren't doing them since they are illegal. Thank god or something!!!

You can't use cocaine, heroin, LSD and prescription drugs "within reason"? Please define within reason. Where is the research that "proves" this? Are you sure you're not high?

Prohibition worked really well with alcohol too!

The last statement you made is just stupid. I am not doing anything I "know is wrong", but I find it reprehensible that lawmakers try to legislate abortion, gay marriage, prostitution, stem cell reserach and drugs based on religious beliefs of their own or their constituents. There is supposed to be separation of church and state.

Steve

 

[ejecta]

You're losing me here. I said raping and stealing should be illegal because you are hurting someone else. Where do we diagree?

You said I was making too broada claim to include stealing and raping as moral issues.

The kids of crack and heroin addicts... Hmmm... kids get beaten and molested all the time by sober parents. Also alcoholics hurt their children and alcohol isn't illegal. What you are missing is that the behavior of hurting a child is illegal and I support that. Anytime you physically hurt or endanger a child, or frankly, any individual, what you are doing should be illegal. Demonizing crack and heroin by themselves and making them illegal, however, is a waste of time. It doesn't stop the behavior and it only adds to society's problems...

Im sorry you think that addictions to those drugs dont contribute to the problem. Ive been in too many couseling and interventions after finished my degree to know better.

What does a prostitute have to do with a cheating husband? Are you really serious with this logic? The act of prostitution should be illegal because it causes husbands to cheat? C'mon, man... Cheaters will always find a way to cheat and they don't have to pay prostitutes to do it. Maybe we should make fucking outside of marriage illegal, huh? Geez man - you are SO proving my point about legislating morality and you don't even realize it. Maybe we should stick to discussing guitars and amps...

Well then since cheating on your wife, husband or mate hurts others should that be illegal? Also have you ever counseled a woman and or her family? You think it victimless? LOL ok believe as you wish.

What I said was that making something ILLEGAL should be based on whether you are physically hurting or endangering others by your actions. Stealing physically hurts the person who is the victim by removing their property.

I don"t give a shit what the founding fathers based this countries laws on - we have a right to change them.

And my point has been all along that your assertion that drugs, prostitution, etc are victimless in that the use and abuse of those drugs have no effect on the family and friends around them....... seriously you have yet to prove that. I mean come on it should be only illegal if it PHYSICALLY hurts somenone? What about mental abuse? Oh thats ok... so in that case I guess we can do away with the good portion of our stalking laws, harrasment laws, and child mental abuse laws etc. Yeah great idea.

 

[ejecta]

So why isnt alcohol illegal? It should be about regulation, not illegality.

Alcohol isnt illegal because the largest AA meeting in the country happens on capitiol hill. It's true. My point with saying that is that I know for a fact from a good friend of my parents that alcohol is big part of the poltical scene in Washington. My view is if people cant do things responsibly like drinking casually .... maybe smoking little weed, not getting wasted but still take care of business with their famliy and jobs etc then fine. But if you cant and alot of people cant then yes it shuold be illegal. Also drugs like cocaine, heroin, LSD, perscrition drugs etc that have been proven that you cant use within reason and those should stay illegal IMHO because they harm so many people, incuding the ones using who I care about too.

All that said... my MAIN point is that morality has its place in society and helps to great extent. I found that most who talk about people who make laws getting on thier "moral high ground" are typically doing something they know is wrong and dont like it that there is a law against it.

You're right, making drugs illegal is REALLY working! People aren't doing them since they are illegal. Thank god or something!!!

You can't use cocaine, heroin, LSD and prescription drugs "within reason"? Please define within reason. Where is the research that "proves" this? Are you sure you're not high?

Prohibition worked really well with alcohol too!

The last statement you made is just stupid. I am not doing anything I "know is wrong", but I find it reprehensible that lawmakers try to legislate abortion, gay marriage, prostitution, stem cell reserach and drugs based on religious beliefs of their own or their constituents. There is supposed to be separation of church and state.

Steve

As to your first point if you think mental abuse cant be taken into account when using morality to make laws then believe as you wish.

The seperation of church and state means that a state sanctioned religion as the only one you can practice is wrong. That doesnt mean you can force or ask those who lead this country to leave the morals they get from thier religion at the door. The phrase "separation of church and state" isfrom a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." He was saying we need ot be preotected from our government telling us how to worship not to stop people who lead the country from using the morals they get from their religion.

 

[Anonymous]

You're losing me here. I said raping and stealing should be illegal because you are hurting someone else. Where do we diagree?

You said I was making too broada claim to include stealing and raping as moral issues.

The kids of crack and heroin addicts... Hmmm... kids get beaten and molested all the time by sober parents. Also alcoholics hurt their children and alcohol isn't illegal. What you are missing is that the behavior of hurting a child is illegal and I support that. Anytime you physically hurt or endanger a child, or frankly, any individual, what you are doing should be illegal. Demonizing crack and heroin by themselves and making them illegal, however, is a waste of time. It doesn't stop the behavior and it only adds to society's problems...

Im sorry you think that addictions to those drugs dont contribute to the problem. Ive been in too many couseling and interventions after finished my degree to know better.

What does a prostitute have to do with a cheating husband? Are you really serious with this logic? The act of prostitution should be illegal because it causes husbands to cheat? C'mon, man... Cheaters will always find a way to cheat and they don't have to pay prostitutes to do it. Maybe we should make fucking outside of marriage illegal, huh? Geez man - you are SO proving my point about legislating morality and you don't even realize it. Maybe we should stick to discussing guitars and amps...

Well then since cheating on your wife, husband or mate hurts others should that be illegal? Also have you ever counseled a woman and or her family? You think it victimless? LOL ok believe as you wish.

What I said was that making something ILLEGAL should be based on whether you are physically hurting or endangering others by your actions. Stealing physically hurts the person who is the victim by removing their property.

I don"t give a shit what the founding fathers based this countries laws on - we have a right to change them.

And my point has been all along that your assertion that drugs, prostitution, etc are victimless in that the use and abuse of those drugs have no effect on the family and friends around them....... seriously you have yet to prove that. I mean come on it should be only illegal if it PHYSICALLY hurts somenone? What about mental abuse? Oh thats ok... so in that case I guess we can do away with the good portion of our stalking laws, harrasment laws, and child mental abuse laws etc. Yeah great idea.

You cannot comprehend the points I am making to you. You do not want to have a conversation. You want to keep pushing forth your untrue rhetoric about what I said. It is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you about this. For the last time:

When I say a crime is "victimless", I mean that no one else is being PHYSICALLY hurt or IN DANGER of being PHYSICALLY hurt. It is not illegal to hurt someone emotionally because you are a drug addict. Making drugs illegal does not change that. I am flabbergasted that you cannot see my point and that I CLEARLY understand that addicts and prostitutes emotionally hurt their families. Geez, I can hurt one of my co-workers feelings pretty badly by saying she looks like a fat pig in the dress she's wearing today. Guess I should go to jail if I say that huh...

Lets just leave this alone and stop now - you are not understanding the distinctions I am making in this conversation and continuing can only make this end badly... I'm extremely frustrated with trying to get my point across to you and have tried multiple ways and you keep coming back with the same shit over and over as if I haven't clearly explained myself. My only point is what should be illegal and what shouldn't, not what currently legal or illegal acts do or do not emotionally hurt people.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

As to your first point if you think mental abuse cant be taken into account when using morality to make laws then believe as you wish.

What?

The seperation of church and state means that a state sanctioned religion as the only one you can practice is wrong

That is only part of what it means.

Seriously, I'm done. Read my last response if you want to try to comprehend what I've already explained multiple ways/multiple times or continue to misinterpret what I'm saying and spout the same rhetoric over and over. I don't care anymore because even with well thought out clear responses to you, you fail to understand...

Steve

 

[tweed]

You cannot comprehend the points I am making to you. You do not want to have a conversation. You want to keep pushing forth your untrue rhetoric about what I said. It is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you about this. For the last time:

When I say a crime is "victimless", I mean that no one else is being PHYSICALLY hurt or IN DANGER of being PHYSICALLY hurt. It is not illegal to hurt someone emotionally because you are a drug addict. Making drugs illegal does not change that. I am flabbergasted that you cannot see my point and that I CLEARLY understand that addicts and prostitutes emotionally hurt their families. Geez, I can hurt one of my co-workers feelings pretty badly by saying she looks like a fat pig in the dress she's wearing today. Guess I should go to jail if I say that huh...

Lets just leave this alone and stop now - you are not understanding the distinctions I am making in this conversation and continuing can only make this end badly... I'm extremely frustrated with trying to get my point across to you and have tried multiple ways and you keep coming back with the same shit over and over as if I haven't clearly explained myself. My only point is what should be illegal and what shouldn't, not what currently legal or illegal acts do or do not emotionally hurt people.

Steve

Obviously, you're not a golfer.

























Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[ejecta]

My only point is what should be illegal and what shouldn't, not what currently legal or illegal acts do or do not emotionally hurt people.

Steve

I get what you are saying I just dont agree that laws cant be made to try and protect people from mental abuse. There are laws on the books now that deal with just that. Lastly I dont get that just because making something illegal doesnt ALWAYS stop the action doesnt mean it shouldnt be illegal. That really doesnt make much sense to me. Anyway we can drop it. I dont want you to be frustrated or angry in any way. We just dont agree which is fine and Im not angry at all just so you know.

 

[ejecta]

Obviously, you're not a golfer.

























Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Very good. I just played the other day. Talk about mental abuse.

 

[badger71]

this thread is hurting my feelings and I'm suffering mental anguish and grief