Duty to Retreat

[Dan Gleesak]

They probably sound the same to you because you have zero training and zero ideas about what your rights and responsibilities are when carrying a firearm for self defense, zero experience with deadly force encounters, zero clue about the OODA loop , the importance of situational awareness or the basic rules of firearm safety. Most likely you only possess a very basic knowledge of how a firearm even works.

The difference is simply that if I pull a gun I have already made the decision that I am out of options and this is the last resort. You don't pull a gun out to scare someone Dan. That is called brandishing and it is illegal in most states. If you can see that I am armed I have already exhausted all my options, including my first choice which is always to remove myself from the situation safely and quickly. You guys have all these ideas about what carrying a gun is and why people do it. Maybe you should educate yourself a little before passing judgement. There's a name for people who pull a gun out and point it at someone and say freeze. It's cop. I am not a cop. I am not going to pull a gun and point it at you in an effort to make you stand down. If I pull a gun on you, you are armed with a weapon that I think will kill me, I have no chance of removing myself from the situation safely and have already run my loop and decided that my only way out is to stop you as quickly as possible.

I know your TV told you that all gun guys are nuts and think they're Rambo, and to be fair there is no shortage of those dumbasses, it comes along with the territory. The fact is though I have thousands of hours of training with professionals, LEO and military and take very deadly serious my decision to arm myself for defense of myself and my family. And I have good reason to. The thing that I don't do is carry a gun because I am afraid to fight or because I think it makes me a badass. And the very last thing I would do to extricate myself from a volatile situation is shoot someone. If I shoot someone my life or someone else's life was genuinely threatened.

Oh drop the bullshit dude. I barely watch tv and when I do it certainly isn’t the news. My opinions on “gun nuts” come from people I know who get off on guns, and conversations I’ve had with them. They come from the classes I took when I was thinking about getting a gun, and they come from the fact that in my entire life I have never once felt I would be safer if I owned one. They are my opinions. It is also my opinion that a state not promoting a “shoot first ask questions later” policy, is not putting their population at danger.

I don’t care if you disagree but don’t give me this “left wing media” horseshit

 

[Floyd Eye]

Oh drop the bullshit dude. I barely watch tv and when I do it certainly isn’t the news. My opinions on “gun nuts” come from people I know who get off on guns, and conversations I’ve had with them. They come from the classes I took when I was thinking about getting a gun, and they come from the fact that in my entire life I have never once felt I would be safer if I owned one. They are my opinions. It is also my opinion that a state not promoting a “shoot first ask questions later” policy, is not putting their population at danger.

I don’t care if you disagree but don’t give me this “left wing media” horseshit

Shoot first ask questions later ? You really are a fucking idiot Dan. You know who claims that's what stand your ground is ? Anti-gun liberals. If you actually knew the difference between stand your ground and duty to retreat you would never call it shoot first and ask questions later. And I'm sure you are talking about a concealed carry class. If you knew anything about guns other than what you learned form idiots, you would know those are barely considered classes. They are simply primers on the laws of your state.

Your decision not to carry a gun means the same thing to me as the class you took. Nothing.

You can fucking pretend it isn't yet another example of you pretending politics has nothing to do with it while stumping for the typical left position, but you are completely full of shit. As usual.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Shoot first ask questions later ? You really are a fucking idiot Dan. You know who claims that's what stand your ground is ? Anti-gun liberals. If you actually knew the difference between stand your ground and duty to retreat you would never call it shoot first and ask questions later. And I'm sure you are talking about a concealed carry class. If you knew anything about guns other than what you learned form idiots, you would know those are barely considered classes. They are simply primers on the laws of your state.

Your decision not to carry a gun means the same thing to me as the class you took. Nothing.

You can fucking pretend it isn't yet another example of you pretending politics has nothing to do with it while stumping for the typical left position, but you are completely full of shit. As usual.

You are out there man. Fuckin hell lol

 

[Floyd Eye]

You are out there man. Fuckin hell lol

That's rich coming from you dude.
I will say it's probably good that you decided not to get a gun since you think SYG equates to shoot first ask questions later. You'd probably be in prison. And I don't think you would do well in prison.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

That's rich coming from you dude.
I will say it's probably good that you decided not to get a gun since you think SYG equates to shoot first ask questions later. You'd probably be in prison. And I don't think you would do well in prison.

Stand your ground means you will never know if the attacker would have stood down, that’s what I equate it to. And again in MA, the only difference would be on the street with an unarmed person. If someone comes into my house or office I can still blast away, stand your ground or not

 

[Floyd Eye]

Stand your ground means you will never know if the attacker would have stood down, that’s what I equate it to. And again in MA, the only difference would be on the street with an unarmed person. If someone comes into my house or office I can still blast away, stand your ground or not

See, you just don't listen. What you equate to it doesn't mean much. Have you ever had someone come up to you and pull a knife on you ? Or have someone shoot at you ? It's not the movies. Having a gun doesn't make you John Wick. Unless you have actually been in a life or death situation, someone shooting at you or trying to kill you, you have no idea how you will react when that massive adrenaline dump hits. You aren't going to remember this law or that law or this ninja move you saw Jackie Chan do or any of that other shit. You will not rise to the occasion. You will fall to the level of your training. Which in your case is none. It will not be in slow motion and you will not have time to be rational. So when some dude comes at you with a knife or a gun, on the street, you are going to die Dan. You can either make peace with that or prepare yourself to defend against it.

How is someone attacking you in your house any different than someone attacking you on the street ?

If someone pulls a gun or a knife on you they really are kind of responsible for everything that happens next aren't they ?

Even in a SYG state, if you cannot justify that your life was in danger you are going to prison. So if your life is in danger explain to me how this law is not morally reprehensible ?

The idea that you have to give a guy with a weapon a chance to change his mind is flawed on several accounts. The most important one being that you are already starting off at a severe disadvantage since the attacker chooses the time to attack and you are completely unaware. So you are already trying to make up time to save your life. And you think adding more shit to try to rationalize in that split second you may have to save your life isn't putting your life in extreme jeopardy? It's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

See, you just don't listen. What you equate to it doesn't mean much. Have you ever had someone come up to you and pull a knife on you ? Or have someone shoot at you ? It's not the movies. Having a gun doesn't make you John Wick. Unless you have actually been in a life or death situation, someone shooting at you or trying to kill you, you have no idea how you will react when that massive adrenaline dump hits. You aren't going to remember this law or that law or this ninja move you saw Jackie Chan do or any of that other shit. You will not rise to the occasion. You will fall to the level of your training. Which in your case is none. It will not be in slow motion and you will not have time to be rational. So when some dude comes at you with a knife or a gun, on the street, you are going to die Dan. You can either make peace with that or prepare yourself to defend against it.

How is someone attacking you in your house any different than someone attacking you on the street ?

If someone pulls a gun or a knife on you they really are kind of responsible for everything that happens next aren't they ?

Even in a SYG state, if you cannot justify that your life was in danger you are going to prison. So if your life is in danger explain to me how this law is not morally reprehensible ?

The idea that you have to give a guy with a weapon a chance to change his mind is flawed on several accounts. The most important one being that you are already starting off at a severe disadvantage since the attacker chooses the time to attack and you are completely unaware. So you are already trying to make up time to save your life. And you think adding more shit to try to rationalize in that split second you may have to save your life isn't putting your life in extreme jeopardy? It's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

You told me what you thought SYG equated to me, I corrected you.

It does make a difference whether it is in my house or on the street cause the law in Massachusetts states there is a difference. Castle something or other

I don’t believe someone who pulls a knife or gun necessarily deserves to die. I also don’t think one person should decide in a split second who deserves to die or not. That is not self defense to me. Law or not, i personally would try to get away from an attacker before killing him. Or retreat if you will.


The way you describe SYG sounds no different to me than how the state of MA described their laws.

 

[Floyd Eye]

You told me what you thought SYG equated to me, I corrected you.

It does make a difference whether it is in my house or on the street cause the law in Massachusetts states there is a difference. Castle something or other

I don’t believe someone who pulls a knife or gun necessarily deserves to die. I also don’t think one person should decide in a split second who deserves to die or not. That is not self defense to me. Law or not, i personally would try to get away from an attacker before killing him. Or retreat if you will.


The way you describe SYG sounds no different to me than how the state of MA described their laws.

I think it's funny that you think in that split second, full of adrenaline, you are going to make some rational decision. And that isn't even the most fucked up thing about this post. Let's not even start on the fact that you apparently think the laws of physics and time and space can be distorted to allow for fair trials for people who point loaded weapons at other people in random places on the street. ( Don't look now but thinking that people who point guns and knives at other people deserve a chance to change their mind at the expense of possibly some innocent person's life and they deserve a trial and not to become the "Victim" of someone else's self defense is 100% a far left pile of nonsense. And also the reason why so much of that shot goes on in the first place)


Let's say, uh, some kids you happen to be watching are in extreme immediate danger. Could be from anything. You see it, your heart starts pounding, you are on the verge of panic. In your panic you do the first thing you can think of that will take the kids out of harms way.

Next thing you know you're on the stand and some greasy lawyer is grilling you about the decision you made, saving the kid's lives and you are fighting to stay out of prison. Seem fair ?

I'm glad you're in Massachussetts. The only thing that would be better is if you were in Sandwich Massachusetts and the cop cars said "Sandwich Police".

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I think it's funny that you think in that split second, full of adrenaline, you are going to make some rational decision. And that isn't even the most fucked up thing about this post. Let's not even start on the fact that you apparently think the laws of physics and time and space can be distorted to allow for fair trials for people who point loaded weapons at other people in random places on the street. ( Don't look now but thinking that people who point guns and knives at other people deserve a chance to change their mind at the expense of possibly some innocent person's life and they deserve a trial and not to become the "Victim" of someone else's self defense is 100% a far left pile of nonsense. And also the reason why so much of that shot goes on in the first place)


Let's say, uh, some kids you happen to be watching are in extreme immediate danger. Could be from anything. You see it, your heart starts pounding, you are on the verge of panic. In your panic you do the first thing you can think of that will take the kids out of harms way.

Next thing you know you're on the stand and some greasy lawyer is grilling you about the decision you made, saving the kid's lives and you are fighting to stay out of prison. Seem fair ?

I'm glad you're in Massachussetts. The only thing that would be better is if you were in Sandwich Massachusetts and the cop cars said "Sandwich Police".

I don’t think anyone is going to make a rational decision in that split second. Thats why I think it’s a good idea to ask that people try and get out of danger first.

I spent a lot of time in Sandwich. It’s sad that they think they are part of the Cape

 

[rsm]

I don’t think anyone is going to make a rational decision in that split second. Thats why I think it’s a good idea to ask that people try and get out of danger first.

I spent a lot of time in Sandwich. It’s sad that they think they are part of the Cape

yes, because violent, armed criminals make rational decisions before / during attacking their victims.

SMH

 

[japetus]

I don’t think anyone is going to make a rational decision in that split second. Thats why I think it’s a good idea to ask that people try and get out of danger first.

I spent a lot of time in Sandwich. It’s sad that they think they are part of the Cape

Man, if you are ever in the St Louis area...I will show you around

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Man, if you are ever in the St Louis area...I will show you around

I lived in Troy NY for a decade, I’ve done my time listening to gun fire at night

 

[Dan Gleesak]

yes, because violent, armed criminals make rational decisions before / during attacking their victims.

SMH

And even and Massachusetts you can shoot them. This is the most bizarre conversation

 

[Floyd Eye]

yes, because violent, armed criminals make rational decisions before / during attacking their victims.

SMH

Dan is having a hard time understanding why the onus should not be on the victim to defend their actions when they are attacked by an armed assailant.

 

[Floyd Eye]

And even and Massachusetts you can shoot them. This is the most bizarre conversation

Only to you. You think everything is bizzare. Which is odd since you are bizzare.

 

[JackBootedThug]

A to the k homeboy….

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Dan is having a hard time understanding why the onus should not be on the victim to defend their actions when they are attacked by an armed assailant.

Oh dear

 

[JTyson]

Not in Georgia. We have Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine.

Here too.
Our County Sheriff is a Constitutional badass and has openly stated there will be zero enforcement of unconstitutional laws passed by leftist zealots. He also announces when hurricanes hit us that if you loot you will likely be shot on sight due to those very laws..

We love our sheriff

 

[311boogieman]

It’s not my fault you think that is leftist. The mass laws say that you can’t shoot someone unless they also have a gun, or if they are in your house. That seems pretty fair dude lol

You have great threads in the main forum so I've been leaving you alone in OTC

Edit: Sorry, I thought you were @JohnnyGtar

But if I lived in MI, for example, and I'm in my back hard and two thugs jump the fence, one with a knife and one with a baseball bat, I'm supposed to just take it even if my 9m is at my side? Fuck that.

Maybe that is not what you were saying

 

[JTyson]

See, you just don't listen. What you equate to it doesn't mean much. Have you ever had someone come up to you and pull a knife on you ? Or have someone shoot at you ? It's not the movies. Having a gun doesn't make you John Wick. Unless you have actually been in a life or death situation, someone shooting at you or trying to kill you, you have no idea how you will react when that massive adrenaline dump hits. You aren't going to remember this law or that law or this ninja move you saw Jackie Chan do or any of that other shit. You will not rise to the occasion. You will fall to the level of your training. Which in your case is none. It will not be in slow motion and you will not have time to be rational. So when some dude comes at you with a knife or a gun, on the street, you are going to die Dan. You can either make peace with that or prepare yourself to defend against it.

How is someone attacking you in your house any different than someone attacking you on the street ?

If someone pulls a gun or a knife on you they really are kind of responsible for everything that happens next aren't they ?

Even in a SYG state, if you cannot justify that your life was in danger you are going to prison. So if your life is in danger explain to me how this law is not morally reprehensible ?

The idea that you have to give a guy with a weapon a chance to change his mind is flawed on several accounts. The most important one being that you are already starting off at a severe disadvantage since the attacker chooses the time to attack and you are completely unaware. So you are already trying to make up time to save your life. And you think adding more shit to try to rationalize in that split second you may have to save your life isn't putting your life in extreme jeopardy? It's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

Absolutely fact…
Not that it will help. ?
Anusrar, can you think of, or show any vid evidence that a criminal with a knife or a gun has ever changed his mind when the Vic was unarmed?
Ever?
Most low level criminals are opportunistic, they pick people based on the fact that they don’t think the Vic will do anything but fold when they display a willingness to make them at least think they will use violence.
The only thing that will make them change course is a gun in their face or a much bigger knife if they have a knife. Thinking you will talk sense to them is pure folly unless you have a gun pointed at them.
I’ve been on the road 40+ years working, I’ve had to pull a gun out twice in that time and I can tell you first hand it’s not until they think your about to shoot them that they miraculously become very sensible people.
I did not shoot either of them because once I have sights on them I had a second to tell them to change their mind or get shot in the face. Floyd is right, 90% of us who carry weapons don’t want to shoot anyone. We just want to be left alone. I could have legally shot both of them but I didn’t.
Your assessment of the majority of people who carry guns just waiting for a chance to shoot someone is absolutely incorrect.
Are those people out there? Yes
Does that negate the rights of the vast majority of gun owners? Well it shouldn’t, but it does in some states