Duty to Retreat

[MadAsAHatter]

It’s really not a matter of would you risk prison to save your loved ones life. It’s a matter of why the fuck should you have to risk prison for it.

^This^
The thought of risking jail time shouldn't even be in the equation when reasonably defending yourself, your family, or anyone in danger for that matter.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

well given today's society (that marine in NYC, the other guy that pulled a gun on a guy that was attacking a woman he didn't know, etc.), if I don't know you, if you're an adult, I won't intervene on your behalf; unless you're a minor child being attacked by an adult or an elderly/disabled person.

If you come after anyone I know; different story. FWIW, I'd risk time in prison over knowing I allowed a loved one to be attacked, hurt or worse.

I imagine I would intervene if it was a loved one was being attacked, and more than likely I would get my ass kicked. But I can’t say that I would kill somebody unless my back is against the wall (and I have something to kill them with)

 

[Dan Gleesak]

^This^
The thought of risking jail time shouldn't even be in the equation when reasonably defending yourself, your family, or anyone in danger for that matter.

But there is the rub. If we can admit adrenaline will blur the decision making process, we also have to admit that “reasonably defending yourself” is a massive grey area.

 

[rsm]

I imagine I would intervene if it was a loved one wind attacked, and more than likely I would get my ass kicked. But I can’t say that I would kill somebody unless my back is against the wall (and I have something to kill them with)

not saying what I will / won't do; only that I won't standby and do nothing if it's someone I care about (including myself). What I do / don't do will be based on the situation and options - in the heat of the moment, there won't be time to consider all possibilities only the most expedient to protect my loved ones as quickly and with least risk

 

[Dan Gleesak]

not saying what I will / won't do; only that I won't standby and do nothing if it's someone I care about (including myself). What I do / don't do will be based on the situation and options - in the heat of the moment, there won't be time to consider all possibilities only the most expedient to protect my loved ones as quickly and with least risk

But that’s why it is so tricky to make laws about it. Every single situation like this is unique. So basically either you have to leave it up to the person with the gun to fully decide what is justified, or you have to try and regulate it. Neither one is perfect

 

[rsm]

It’s really not a matter of would you risk prison to save your loved ones life. It’s a matter of why the fuck should you have to risk prison for it.

I agree; my point is I won't be thinking about anything other than my immediate goals, options and outcomes; not the future beyond that.

We can see the results of people looking the other way, retreating, running away, etc. including police - in the UK, France, Germany, much of Western Europe, and the police at Uvalde, TX. All which results in emboldening the criminals and the illegal invaders...plenty of examples...don't enforce the laws, don't allow people the right / ability to protect themselves you create even more potential victims and even more incentives for more violent crime.

 

[311boogieman]

For me personally, the adrenaline and panic is why I don’t carry again and quite frankly why I don’t think other people should either (not saying they should be banned).

but still the simple point behind my feelings is still that the law doesn’t bother me because in that instant, the law would not be what I was thinking about. I believe my only thought will be “how can I not die right now”

Or put another way, potential punishment should not be a deciding factor of whether or not you take someone else’s life. that should be done for one reason and one reason only, to save your own

That is why one studies the law, has a good attorney and practice-practice-practice. The guy I took most of my handgun training from also does self defense classes, which is my next step. I'm a bit behind you all in most of this honestly, kind of like my love affair for electric guitar.

If someone was breaking in/trying to steal my truck I'm just going to let them have it. No reason to risk my life for something that can be replaced. But at the same time if I hear a ruckus outside I'm probably going to go out to see what the commotion is about. Stumbling upon someone breaking into my truck has a potential to turn violent in an instant if the thief suddenly decides to attack.

I'm glad you put the bold part in there. Yeah, a simple car-jacking is not worth your life. I can get my truck back or get a new truck. Like you said, and others, you have to prove you were in eminent danger of losing your life before you can take another's life. That IS hard to judge I'm sure in the heat of the moment.

Personally, I'd rather have that choice then to not have it at all. So that is where I disagree with @Justin Bailey. He used to carry evidently, but something changed for him and now he doesn't want to. I sincerely hope Dan - you never get into a situation where you regret that decision

 

[Dan Gleesak]

That is why one studies the law, has a good attorney and practice-practice-practice. The guy I took most of my handgun training from also does self defense classes, which is my next step. I'm a bit behind you all in most of this honestly, kind of like my love affair for electric guitar.




I'm glad you put the bold part in there. Yeah, a simple car-jacking is not worth your life. I can get my truck back or get a new truck. Like you said, and others, you have to prove you were in eminent danger of losing your life before you can take another's life. That IS hard to judge I'm sure in the heat of the moment.

Personally, I'd rather have that choice then to not have it at all. So that is where I disagree with @Justin Bailey. He used to carry evidently, but something changed for him and now he doesn't want to. I sincerely hope Dan - you never get into a situation where you regret that decision

I never carried. I very much enjoy target shooting so I was going to get my license when I lived in PA because I could walk to a range.
But then I moved and never really had the urge anymore. Even if I had gotten a license I had no intention to ever carry a gun, or even leave one loaded in my house. I could think of a very long list of things to protect my family from that are more likely than guns. (Aside from school shootings but that’s another discussion all together)

I have lived in very affluent areas and absolute shitholes and I can’t say Ive ever once felt I would be safer if I had a gun

 

[311boogieman]

Curious what that list would look like Dan.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

But there is the rub. If we can admit adrenaline will blur the decision making process, we also have to admit that “reasonably defending yourself” is a massive grey area.

I don't think anyone is denying that adrenaline pumping through you isn't going to skew your decision making. There is a grey area, but It's probably not as big as you think it is. No, there's not some hard line that says do not cross and every situation is different. If it comes down to it a jury of your peers will decide. I don't know about you but I'd rather be judged on if that extra punch thrown was reasonable vs why did I defend myself in the first place.

 

[84superchamp]

So many instances of a threat or using a firearm during that threat are highly emotional, not easy to take a common sense approach or think things out with only seconds to act or not act.
I’ve only had one occurrence in my life that I had a Glock in my hand and was ready to use it: 2am and someone was trying to kick a door in at my house, got out of bed to check and saw no one there. While wife and I were discussing it the kicking started at another door and that’s when I got the pistol, a flashlight and headed outside in my robe (we had no security lights at the time). I wandered around the yard checking the area with the flashlight but saw nothing.
Before going back in, I wanted to let the perp know what I had and fired off a round into the ground….I live in the sticks so distant neighbors weren’t alarmed and if he was still in the area, he saw and heard the shot.
It never happened again. I suspect it was a big kid who lived close by with his mom and was a bit demented, we’ve had disagreements before and I could easily picture him doing it. If so, I hoped the presence of a firearm deterred him from future escapades.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Curious what that list would look like Dan.

The pedophile that lives down the street
The black bear that is in my yard every morning
Cars speeding down my road
Car accidents in general
E. coli in the lake
Snakes
Falling off their bikes
A tree falling on our house
Drugs
Alcohol

If im being honest, I’d worry that they would get struck by lighting before being held up at gunpoint

The need to take another man’s life is not my reality. It’s not a day to day worry

 

[rsm]

But that’s why it is so tricky to make laws about it. Every single situation like this is unique. So basically either you have to leave it up to the person with the gun to fully decide what is justified, or you have to try and regulate it. Neither one is perfect

Like I said, I will err on the side of my loved ones not my possible consequences

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I don't think anyone is denying that adrenaline pumping through you isn't going to skew your decision making. There is a grey area, but It's probably not as big as you think it is. No, there's not some hard line that says do not cross and every situation is different. If it comes down to it a jury of your peers will decide. I don't know about you but I'd rather be judged on if that extra punch thrown was reasonable vs why did I defend myself in the first place.

I think I’m the opposite. Sure things change in the heat of the moment, but I think I’m more of a “kick the guy in the balls” and run away guy than a “punch someone in the face to an inch of their life” kinda guy.

It’s like if you saw an article “wife stabs husband to death” someone might think “maybe she was protecting herself”
If you see “wife stabs husband 37 times” you might think she’s out of her damn mind

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Like I said, I will err on the side of my loved ones not my possible consequences

That’s what I’m saying too

 

[MadAsAHatter]

I’m more of a “kick the guy in the balls”

 

[311boogieman]

I don't know about you but I'd rather be judged ...

And I want that chance to be judged vs dead or severely handicapped.

In all honestly, I hope I NEVER have to use my 9mm outside of target practice. Some seem to think (not necessarily you Dan) that by just owning a gun, that I'm gun happy, or gun crazy, or 'looking for a fight', or have a need to taunt or be a bully etc etc.

The pedophile that lives down the street
The black bear that is in my yard every morning
Cars speeding down my road
Car accidents in general
E. coli in the lake
Snakes
Falling off their bikes
A tree falling on our house
Drugs
Alcohol

If im being honest, I’d worry that they would get struck by lighting before being held up at gunpoint

The need to take another man’s life is not my reality. It’s not a day to day worry

Thanks for the list. Those are all valid. The chance of getting hit by lightning is probably higher. I'd consider that a natural cause. I'd consider an armed robbery in my house unnatural and also somewhat avoidable

I'm glad you live in a safe neighborhood. So do I. A dead end street as a matter of fact. I have no fear of thugs coming to my house, turning off my cameras, turning off the alarm, getting through any of my doors and doing any real harm.

But, if I travel to my cabin or hanging out there all weekend, you count on me being prepared.

 

[311boogieman]

So many instances of a threat or using a firearm during that threat are highly emotional, not easy to take a common sense approach or think things out with only seconds to act or not act.
I’ve only had one occurrence in my life that I had a Glock in my hand and was ready to use it: 2am and someone was trying to kick a door in at my house, got out of bed to check and saw no one there. While wife and I were discussing it the kicking started at another door and that’s when I got the pistol, a flashlight and headed outside in my robe (we had no security lights at the time). I wandered around the yard checking the area with the flashlight but saw nothing.
Before going back in, I wanted to let the perp know what I had and fired off a round into the ground….I live in the sticks so distant neighbors weren’t alarmed and if he was still in the area, he saw and heard the shot.
It never happened again. I suspect it was a big kid who lived close by with his mom and was a bit demented, we’ve had disagreements before and I could easily picture him doing it. If so, I hoped the presence of a firearm deterred him from future escapades.

Glad that is all that happened. I can only imagine. Now that my youngest is out of the house I keep my firearm on my bedside table. Before that, it was in a combo locked gun case on the same nightstand. Not the best ideally.

Closest I came to that was about 7 years ago at my cabin. It was late. There is no one around for miles. But I'm in a hollar (valley) and can hear everything fairly well. So I hear this car coming down the gravel road. Car drives through entrance with No Trespassing signs everywhere. It was maybe 10pm. I had left the gate open that day because my wife was coming down the following morning. It is locked now all the time and I have a deer cam up there. Anyway, long story short, this dude rolls up. Slumbers out of his car and when questioned what the hell are doing down here, he said he was looking for his friends place. Knowing that friend, it didn't really surprise me he was fucked up and lost. He had taken a wrong turn and was unfamiliar with the area. At night, this area can be very difficult to navigate, especially with no moon. Anyway, he spoke with a "Meth Voice" meaning he wasn't drunk but was high on something. I told him he needed to leave and that he had made a wrong turn. He left. 30 min later I hear him coming down the drive again. This time, I got my .22 long rifle and placed on the picnic table where I have been sitting by the fire.

He saw that, and finally listened the second time I told him to leave. But that scenario could have been much different.

No way I would not have something on me to protect myself is all I'm saying.

 

[rsm]

And I want that chance to be judged vs dead or severely handicapped.

In all honestly, I hope I NEVER have to use my 9mm outside of target practice. Some seem to think (not necessarily you Dan) that by just owning a gun, that I'm gun happy, or gun crazy, or 'looking for a fight', or have a need to taunt or be a bully etc etc.


Thanks for the list. Those are all valid. The chance of getting hit by lightning is probably higher. I'd consider that a natural cause. I'd consider an armed robbery in my house unnatural and also somewhat avoidable

I'm glad you live in a safe neighborhood. So do I. A dead end street as a matter of fact. I have no fear of thugs coming to my house, turning off my cameras, turning off the alarm, getting through any of my doors and doing any real harm.

But, if I travel to my cabin or hanging out there all weekend, you count on me being prepared.

My view is when seconds count, the police are minutes (or longer) away. I'm responsible for my loved ones' and my own safety, first line. I never want to use a firearm against another person, but if that is my only option, I want to be sure I've trained and practiced to do it fast and accurately.

 

[Wayniac3]

In all honestly, I hope I NEVER have to use my 9mm outside of target practice. Some seem to think (not necessarily you Dan) that by just owning a gun, that I'm gun happy, or gun crazy, or 'looking for a fight', or have a need to taunt or be a bully etc etc.

Exactly!!
Just the opposite - if you are carrying, you have the responsibility to do your best to avoid, deescalate or remove yourself form the situation.