Proof the Earth is round

[VonBonfire]

The church fathers would have had no way of knowing one way or the other.

So why give credence to the things pagan philosophers have said? You're favoring one side because it fits your "evidence" and I am doing the same.

If there is a God, is it possible that he/she/it tried to communicate to us his wishes but because he is not human, all he could do was to 'convey' it?

None can look upon the face of God and live. He communicated through his son, Jesus Christ hence it was Christ who walked in the garden with Adam and Christ also who dictated the law to Moses on Sinai which is the source of the Genesis story we are discussing. God is only knowable through Christ.

A day on Earth in the bible could be a billion years in real life. Is that not possible? Is it possible the church fathers had no frickin clue what was going on and made up some stuff?

Yes it's possible a day could be a billion years because man counts time via the sun and the moon, which aren't even made until the 4th "day" so what was a day prior to that?

It is not possible the early church fathers transmitted deceit. The whole faith hinges on that not being a possibility but I guess if you believe that then it is easy to discard anything biblical.

 

[Floyd Eye]

If natural selection got us here and I'm not saying it 100% did or didn't, there is still nothing to say that the system of natural selection wasn't by intelligent design.

Agreed. Same with the Big Bang.

 

[311boogieman]

If natural selection got us here and I'm not saying it 100% did or didn't, there is still nothing to say that the system of natural selection wasn't by intelligent design.

The intelligent design could be called survival of the fittest, mutation and adaptation, Darwinism, etc..

So why give credence to the things pagan philosophers have said? You're favoring one side because it fits your "evidence" and I am doing the same.


None can look upon the face of God and live. He communicated through his son, Jesus Christ hence it was Christ who walked in the garden with Adam and Christ also who dictated the law to Moses on Sinai which is the source of the Genesis story we are discussing. God is only knowable through Christ.


Yes it's possible a day could be a billion years because man counts time via the sun and the moon, which aren't even made until the 4th "day" so what was a day prior to that?

It is not possible the early church fathers transmitted deceit. The whole faith hinges on that not being a possibility but I guess if you believe that then it is easy to discard anything biblical.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Bad Brain]

So I've worked hard, I believe, to listen and understand your point of view. To give you credit for your belief system and why you believe what you believe. It doesn't seem you want to return the favor to see my point of view.

I recognize your point of view, I think. I understand there is astronomical evidence, reasoned deductions and math that supports the idea, observable evidence viewable by telescope and so on. But IMO I don't see any of that as conclusive. IMO there are arguments on both sides regarding this sort of data.

I think people tend to get worked up because in their mind there is no debate and it is proven fact that we live on a spinning ball. And maybe it is. But I think the debate would be better if you guys let go of what you think you absolutely "Know" because of NASA pictures or incredulity about conspiracy theories. I'm not saying there is no evidence that we live on a spinning ball, but most everything we sense and experience on a day to day basis says otherwise. If I've missed something, either irrefutable evidence or arguments you've provided let me know.

 

[VonBonfire]

The intelligent design could be called survival of the fittest, mutation and adaptation, Darwinism, etc..

However you decide to slice it, the science you hold to also says that all humanity is descended from a single original pair which confirms the biblical account of Adam and Eve.

 

[Thumbpicker]

It is not possible the early church fathers transmitted deceit. The whole faith hinges on that not being a possibility but I guess if you believe that then it is easy to discard anything biblical.

There is very little in the Bible about the faith hinging on church fathers. Think about that because you are relying on people in the church and you know people are sinful and fallible. You should look back to the source. The Bible. Not Church traditions that may stray.

That could very well be a big error. Like taking a drawing and asking people to copy the drawing, then taking the original away and copying the copy and so forth. How long before the multiple copies of copies no longer look like the original?

 

[311boogieman]

IMO there are arguments on both sides regarding this sort of data.

Agreed.

And if I was a skeptical about space, then the last lunar eclipse and the homemade photos/videos from people at home on thier iphones or whatever would probably be enough to swing me to the ball earth theory.

There is very little in the Bible about the faith hinging on church fathers. Think about that because you are relying on people in the church and you know people are sinful and fallible. You should look back to the source. The Bible. Not Church traditions that may stray.

That could very well be a big error. Like taking a drawing and asking people to copy the drawing, then taking the original away and copying the copy and so forth. How long before the multiple copies of copies no longer look like the original?

Or better yet. Ever play that game where one person in a circle of friends starts by whispering a story in the ear to the person on their left and so on so as when the story gets back to you - it has changed?

 

[Thumbpicker]

Or better yet. Ever play that game where one person in a circle of friends starts by whispering a story in the ear to the person on their left and so on so as when the story gets back to you - it has changed?

Yes exactly - the actual term for this is "generation loss".

 

[VonBonfire]

There is very little in the Bible about the faith hinging on church fathers. Think about that because you are relying on people in the church and you know people are sinful and fallible. You should look back to the source. The Bible. Not Church traditions that may stray.

I am looking back at the scripture, which does not speak of a heliocentric universe, nor of a sphere. This is the exact reason the early church fathers did not believe in sphere earth, or earth revolving around the sun. If you think it does then you have embraced things that spring from pagan sources.

That could very well be a big error. Like taking a drawing and asking people to copy the drawing, then taking the original away and copying the copy and so forth. How long before the multiple copies of copies no longer look like the original?

Except the oldest texts found, the dead seas scrolls, matched exactly with later copies of OT scripture. So if there is a big error anywhere, it's non-historical, recent christianity, embracing what amount to pagan beliefs about the earth and the the sun. It doesn't really matter whether it's informed by science or by the greek pantheon because both of those beliefs align, and are of pagan origins.

 

[Thumbpicker]

I am looking back at the scripture, which does not speak of a heliocentric universe, nor of a sphere. This is the exact reason the early church fathers did not believe in sphere earth, or earth revolving around the sun. If you think it does then you have embraced things that spring from pagan sources.

Knowing the Sun is the centre of the solar system isn't really up for debate - it's not pagan to know it or a from a pagan knowledge source. It's up to you to align the scripture to the facts.

Except the oldest texts found, the dead seas scrolls, matched exactly with later copies of OT scripture. So if there is a big error anywhere, it's non-historical, recent christianity, embracing what amount to pagan beliefs about the earth and the the sun. It doesn't really matter whether it's informed by science or by the greek pantheon because both of those beliefs align, and are of pagan origins.

I'm not talking about the scriptures changing. I'm talking about man-made church traditions changing the Christian relgion over time and the notion that Church canon can supercede the Bible until what people in some churches believe doesn't match what the Bible says.

 

[Thumbpicker]

Actually technically the centre of the solar system can sometimes be slightly above the sun's surface when the planets are aligned in certain ways. The centre of mass of Jupiter and the sun alone is always above the sun's surface because Jupiter is massive. If Saturn and Jupiter were on opposite sides of the sun the barycentre would be within the sun. So if most of the gas giants were on one side of the sun the barycentre of the solar system would be above the sun's surface.

 

[VonBonfire]

Knowing the Sun is the centre of the solar system isn't really up for debate - it's not pagan to know it or a from a pagan knowledge source. It's up to you to align the scripture to the facts.

The "facts" are in a constant state of flux. You have disregarded scripture in favor of modern, secular beliefs. It's interesting to have watched you fight so fearsomely for scripture only to toss everything it says aside in another argument tho.

I'm not talking about the scriptures changing. I'm talking about man-made church traditions changing the Christian relgion over time and the notion that Church canon can supercede the Bible until what people in some churches believe doesn't match what the Bible says.

You're not listening. The earliest christians were all geocentrists BECAUSE of the scriptures. The early church fathers condemned heliocentric models BECAUSE of the scriptures. If anything, you don't match what the bible says. You're all sola scriptura until I toss your globe under the bus at which point you side with non-christians, which is also weird considering you got on my case for "agreeing with luciferians" in our previous biblical discussions.

 

[311boogieman]

Actually technically the centre of the solar system can sometimes be slightly above the sun's surface when the planets are aligned in certain ways. The centre of mass of Jupiter and the sun alone is always above the sun's surface because Jupiter is massive. If Saturn and Jupiter were on opposite sides of the sun the barycentre would be within the sun. So if most of the gas giants were on one side of the sun the barycentre of the solar system would be above the sun's surface.

Did you watch 3 Body Problem?

 

[Thumbpicker]

You're not listening. The earliest christians were all geocentrists BECAUSE of the scriptures. The early church fathers condemned heliocentric models BECAUSE of the scriptures. If anything, you don't match what the bible says. You're all sola scriptura until I toss your globe under the bus at which point you side with non-christians, which is also weird considering you got on my case for "agreeing with luciferians" in our previous biblical discussions.

The earliest Christians and the Israellites of the Old Testament didn't know the truth about the solar system and interpreted the scripture according to their assumptions. Now that we know how the solar system actually is you have to read the Bible according to current knowledge. I don't think it contradicts the scripture anyway. This is going back to you thinking that church fathers are inerrent however only God is inerrent. You should know that all men except for the perfect man Jesus are flawed. The Bible doesn't actually say the Earth is the centre of the solar system - it writes about views from the perspective of an observer on the Earth eg. about the heavens above etc and the sun rising etc. However this doesn't mean it's the centre of the solar system either. Given there's no-one living outside the solar system you could say the Earth is the spiritual centre of the universe and solar system outside of heaven that is. The Earth is not the geometric centre of the solar system however.

 

[Thumbpicker]

Did you watch 3 Body Problem?

No.

 

[SatanicPanic]

The "facts" are in a constant state of flux. You have disregarded scripture in favor of modern, secular beliefs. It's interesting to have watched you fight so fearsomely for scripture only to toss everything it says aside in another argument tho.

Facts are not in flux. Theories can and do change. They change because of evidence. Once you dismiss any evidence that contradicts your beliefs then you are not using your ability to reason.

You're not listening. The earliest christians were all geocentrists BECAUSE of the scriptures. The early church fathers condemned heliocentric models BECAUSE of the scriptures.

You're so close to getting it. It's just one logical step. It doesn't even require you alter your faith in any way, only to accept that the Scriptures are not scientific treaties.

BTW: I am not personally attacking you or your faith. Only your devotion to reject the empirical knowledge of the world you live in. If you say you won't ever change your mind then fair enough.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Biblical theory as described by Satan. Interesting idea.

 

[Thumbpicker]

Facts are not in flux. Theories can and do change. They change because of evidence. Once you dismiss any evidence that contradicts your beliefs then you are not using your ability to reason.



You're so close to getting it. It's just one logical step. It doesn't even require you alter your faith in any way, only to accept that the Scriptures are not scientific treaties.

BTW: I am not personally attacking you or your faith. Only your devotion to reject the empirical knowledge of the world you live in. If you say you won't ever change your mind then fair enough.

As a Christian I find your choice of name here rather disturbing so that's why I don't engage with you. Other than making this comment.

 

[Thumbpicker]

Biblical theory as described by Satan. Interesting idea.

Ha - we posted something with the basically the same sentiment at the same time.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I’m pretty ripped tonight so I’m going to ramble on a bit.
Most of my understanding, or more so my basis for my thoughts on God, stem more from a philosophical background thana biblical one.
The big 2 in philosophy are that God is all knowing and all powerful. All powerful is often modified to include being able to do anything “logically” possible, most likely as a result of of thought exercises like “can god create a boulder so large he cannot move it” and so on.
But the problem with logic is that it is contingent upon the human condition. Much like science, logic is formed using the best information or experiences available to us.

However while logic can be science based, and science can at least start off as logic based, the difference between the two is that scientific facts eventually come to be through consensus (numerous trials by different people and techniques all coming to the same result); while there is no real metric to decide what is correct logic. It’s still very much an individualistic idea.

So as a human without a strong faith in God, all I have is my human logic to try and understand Him. But one thing I often hear that I have a (logical) issue with, is that God created humans “in His own image”.

The universe is harsh and brutal. Nature is harsh and brutal. The lines are blurred to me between living and dying. Dead and alive are clear cut, but living and dying could easily be seen as one and the same. “Living” is just another way to say “staying alive”. The timer starts the second you are born and you don’t stop fighting against it until you die.

To tie it together, as someone who has accepted that the universe is pretty fucking big, I have to wonder, logically, how the human form, humans as an organism, can be seen as the image of a being that is understood to be perfect. We are fragile beings, unfit to survive on the majority of our own planet. Sure, thumbs are cool and our brains allow us to get by, but how can struggling to survive be considered perfect?

Did God create our brains to be able to understand him, or did our brains allow us to create God? It’s the route of the entire discussion, and it will probably never be completely answered.

“God works in mysterious ways” is a curious phrase. I can intellectually accept the premise that we humans do not function at the capacity to understand why God has done, and still does the things He does. But to me, “being created in his image” allows me to hold on to the hope that we will continue to learn and understand the universe around us, and continue to get closer and closer to understanding Him.

Can we “logically” ever reach His level? Probably not; but we do get small human baby steps closer every day. His ways become less “mysterious” every day, and I believe science plays a very important role in that.

The (scientific) understanding of our universe is just as instrumental to proving God as it is to disprove Him. Schmoes on the Internet will try and use science to disprove Him, but Science, or at least good science will never be done with the sole intent to disprove Him.

Science is impartial.

While God’s omnipotence and omniscience allow him to be ultimately fair, science’s impartiality allows it to be fair as well.

If God created us in his image, there will be a time that we begin to learn universal truths through science, because science after all, is human; and humans after all are of God’s image.

Free will allows us to chose to believe the word of God because it was written in the book you chose to believe, but free will also allows us to learn and research and potentially discover the word of God ourselves and not through passages. I can’t say I’ve ever “felt God” through the Bible or prayer, but I can tell you that I can’t explain the feeling I had the first time I looked at Saturn through a telescope, or even just seeing the latest James Webb photos online. The feeling extends beyond intellectual curiosity, and into something more “mysterious”. Is that God? Is that feeling God?

“God is Love” is an interesting one too, but I’ll save that for another time.


Basically what I’m trying to say is, the Earth is round and it’s spinning super fast while ripping though space and time.