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VonBonfire
Well-known member
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Holdsworth is Holdsworth. If he had to run a blues band for 3 hours I'm fairly certain he would look like a fool the same way Freddie King would look a fool trying to run a jazz fusion group. Who is the greater athlete, Michael Phelps or Jack Hughes? It's a comparison that doesn't make any sense. They play completely different sports...
rsm
Well-known member
fair enough. It's not about subjective appreciation of the music; it's about their skills on guitar. The fact I like Allan Holdsworth's music (except the vocals when present) doesn't change his objective skill level on guitar. I liked Vai with Roth, but agree most of the guitar-first virtuosos' music is about showcasing their guitar skills not the song IMO
rsm
Well-known member
you said I was biased because I like Holdsworth; you also said that anyone who finds blues boring is because they lack the skills to play it, etc.
My point is, looking at guitarist skills and music complexity, most blues and blues guitarists are not even close to the top. At the top would be classical, jazz and a few rock virtuosos before we'd get to a blues player.
Like I said, I appreciate the skills of blues players, but Hendrix, being blues based, but he went beyond; same for Beck; Trower, as I said I saw him live in the '70s, continued pursuing the blues. Other music genres have moved on beyond the blues, while the blues seems stuck in a repeating loop. If a new crop of bands came out playing 70s style hard rock, it's how I see blues since the '70s, with a few that managed to transcend beyond the blues...BB King certainly didn't, neither did Clapton.
Blues today is in a circular loop, with gradual degradation with few exceptions.
I find modern blues boring. It's not progressing, it's not innovating. That's my opinion.
IMO.
SgtThump
Real OG
I have a few albums I listen to that would surprise people too - Dua Lipa and Daft Punk…
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
Ordinary World is a perfect song. Absolutely perfect.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
None of those technical masters could step into a blues gig and play world class level blues. Who is the greater builder of structures, a master stone mason or a master brick layer? That's the comparison you are making. Two separate specialties with different requirements, both of which have trade secrets the other has little or no concept of. So your comparison doesn't make any sense. It leads me to conclude your blues listening has mostly been superficial and/or you just don't appreciate the genre, which is ok too. I'll stop pushing my record on you.
rsm
Well-known member
I've listened to Duran Duran starting before Rio (Girls on Film), and still listen to them today, including their new releases.
I also like Polyphia, and saw them live here in 2024; if they come back here again I'll be there.
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
Sir, you have excellent taste in music. Duran Duran's "Wedding album" and their "Thank you" tribute album are spectacular. NO ONE sounds like them. They hit the scene with a unique sound. I didn't appreciate them in the 80's, but when I listen to their early catalogue, I'm impressed bigtime. GREAT band. And Andy and John in the Power Station were amazing. Andy RIPPED on that album.
rsm
Well-known member
None of those technical masters could step into a blues gig and play world class level blues. Who is the greater builder of structures, a master stone mason or a master brick layer? That's the comparison you are making. Two separate specialties with different requirements, both of which have trade secrets the other has little or no concept of. So your comparison doesn't make any sense. It leads me to conclude your blues listening has mostly been superficial and/or you just don't appreciate the genre, which is ok too. I'll stop pushing my record on you.
world class level blues? like what? like who? T-Bone Walker? Muddy Waters? Tampa Red? Lightnin' Hopkins? Willie Johnson? Son House? Howlin' Wolf? George Benson? I heard much of it, and it was great at first, but my interests expanded into what was new and innovative, and "happening now" throughout my life, and some still stay in place - like The Beatles, Small Faces, Yes, Sabbath, The Cure, The Smiths, Death, along the way. The only things I still listen to today that is even close to blues is Hendrix, Small Faces, Humble Pie, or some of the blues rock bands like LZ.
blues, maybe something before 1960 perhaps, when it was new innovative and fresh, not a well-defined constrained structure that it has become since the mid-70s
I like old blues, but I find other genres more interesting; and when I hear "modern blues" it bores me, as it's not even close to blues from the 70s and earlier.
I liked big band, motown, blues and rock when I was a tween and younger , then as I got older getting into prog rock, punk, hard rock and new wave, and into thrash, death metal..as a progression. I listen to some old stuff from many genres because I grew up with it / nostalgia vs more complex music I enjoy today.
The music we like is subjective; but the complexity and skills can be assessed objectively. Who would compare Mozart to Taylor Swift?
edit: there are a few songs I remember hearing on the radio when I was a small child;. I still remember the first time I heard them, usually in the car, or at my teenage uncles pool parties...songs like: "Baby Love", "Yellow Submarine" , "Monday, Monday", "Good Vibrations", "Paint it Black"... and an older song, "Sherry" - which I remember because I had a childhood friend named Cheryl, that everyone called Sherry...some songs just stay forever, not all do. I had a small mono record player, and whenever I heard a song I liked on the radio, someone would buy the 45...I had a stacks of them, and wore most of them out...and apparently drove my great grandmother crazy playing songs over and over...Cheers!
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Inflames
Well-known member
It is surprising that you guys quite older than I thought.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
@rsm If it's imaginative, "daring" blues you like, don't forget Greg Koch bro'.
Yeah, we're all seasoned like fine whisky.
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
Inflames
Well-known member
Cool!!
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
You say modern blues bores you. Which modern blues artists have you listened to? Every blues player on your list died over 40 years ago except Benson, which is weird that you even included in that list. So what constitutes modern? Your list is pretty cursory, something you'd review in a general music history course, not reflective of someone who did a lot of listening.
You want objective comparisons of players but different genres require a different skill set so they cannot be compared objectively. If you are just talking about technical speed licks, then talk about that. Tal Farlow's Cherokee at 400bpm might be a good place to start.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Yeah I couldn't say we're aged like fine wine 'cause, well, rock 'n' roll bro'.
Whisky it had to be.
Monkey Man
Super Moderator
Absorootly.
BABMusic
Well-known member
I would agree with you in terms of composition/lyrics, but man, I wish there wasn't so much of that polish/reverb on that song. I doubt they'll ever do a remix, but I would welcome one. Thinking again, it's really just the drums I don't like the sound of.
rsm
Well-known member
list of who I could remember hearing; and covers of some of their songs. I'm not a blues historian, just not that interested in it. like I said, pre-1960 blues was innovating, the people I listed were the real blues guitarists who were innovating...unless you include UK blues guitarists as real blues not derivatives. Hendrix played on the chitlin circuit, unlike British blues guitarists. So, the Rolling Stones covered a lot of blues in the early days...are they the blues masters, or Rory Gallagher?
Who are the blues masters you keep referencing but not naming? What are the "world class level blues" you mention? At least I provided a list of names who I know about, and listened to, and who I consider the creators, originators and innovators of blues in the early days, before British guitarists commandeered it. Blues goes back even further, but much of that was never recorded, pre 1930s/1920s and earlier, but their influences were mentioned by many blues guitarists in the 19450s and later.
you're the blues expert...I'm not. I'm also not a historian of the blues; like I said, I heard some of it when I was young because guitarists I liked would mention their influences, and many were early bluesmen. I listened, and moved on to music I found more interesting, while others never escaped beyond the blues - like Clpaton, Johnny Winter, Robin Trower, etc.
I'd consider modern blues anyone who started playing the blues in the mid to late 70s and beyond, after the originators and innovators were dead or old. I asked you who the blues masters you keep mentioning are? You keep saying blues masters, and I don't understand the blues yet never mention who they are, or what "world class level blues" are?
I mentioned George Benson because I liked his early work with Brother Jack McDuff, Lonnie Smith, George Benson Quartet (The George Benson Cookbook, mid-60s music)...but it's more jazz than blues IMO...again, I was asking you who these blues masters you mention are? what is "world class level blues"?
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