Wizard Amps: Guys swear by them, clips don't do justice. Are there any clips - even of other amps - that come close?

[Racerxrated]

Even without cranking a Wizard at all, I still think they have the best sounding high gain preamps I've heard. I don't think you have to crank them at all to justify them. Their power sections are fantastic when you crank them, they hold up and punch in a way most other amps don't, but that's not mandatory to get the goods out of these things.

After all, part of the reason they're so good is that the power sections are so unshakable when delivering the sounds of the preamps.

edit: I'm not saying they shouldn't have the power sections they do, I'd imagine that even at really low volume, the engineering behind those poweramps shapes the sound overall same as any other amp, I'm just saying in my experience you don't have to crank them for them to sound great.

Agree. I also feel that way about nearly every amp out there.....I've never heard any amp sound bad at a low vol. But a Wizard is like a carnival ride when you turn it up.

I think it's commonly accepted on the forums that no one has captured a Wizard amp in all its glory. Or at least, I haven't seen people posting definitive clips, most of them sound pretty similar to the other high gain amp clips that do the rounds.

Despite that, so many people swear by them on Rig Talk.

I've never even been in the same room with a Wizard, the closest was the Wizard cab half stacks (wasn't sure if they were using Wizard heads as well) at a Foo Fighters concert. Couldn't tell much at that distance.

So are there any clips people can say, "Yeah, that sounds like a Wizard"? How would you convey the sound to someone who is quite keen to separate facts from hype?

I mean, let's face it, not a lot of us want to buy an amp that no one can even mic up. And if there's pants flapping in the room, is that really the metric we want to judge our amps by, or is it tone?

Here is the infamous Reza doing a recording of the MTL MKII:



He's a pretty established Youtuber, but the tone sounds like it's farting out on the settings he's raving about at the start.

In comparison, when I hear all the descriptions tossed about on the forum like moving air and thump, I think of this clip captured with a simple cellphone:




Feel free to beat me up about that clip of a Sig:X, but I found it better than Reza's MTL demo and quite a few others of Wizard amps. Does anyone else find it close or comparable to what owners talk about?

Just wondering how to bell the cat, from the perspective of the "words don't do justice" argument.

Listen to Pretty Reckless stuff....that, I believe is an MCII from 2012/13.
Pretty killer tone. Lol

 

[Racerxrated]

I think you may think people are attacking you. But really we are just trying to answer the question you are asking in the OP.

Have you played a mark series Mesa? There is a lot different feel in that amp than the feel of a mesa recto. I think the recto (with a boost) sounds better, however, the feel of the mark series is special.

If you decide how an amp records matters more than the playing experience, that is fine. But some of us play amps as a hobby first and foremost and so that is our goal in searching for amps.

For me finding an amp that sounds great and feels great is a real win

Dude, I've had 2 Mk IIIs and I would never consider the feel of those amps as anything special. In fact I don't consider a Mk III very special in any way other than to flip or return it haha. Very harsh mids/highs, almost 'scratchy.
That said, if you like a Mk III feel, then you owe it to yourself to grab a C+ reissue. No need to spend $$$ on an OG, when the reissue nails everything the OG has. The feel of THAT amp is simply amazing. Makes the Mk III sound/feel like cardboard.
YMMV

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Agree. I also feel that way about nearly every amp out there.....I've never heard any amp sound bad at a low vol. But a Wizard is like a carnival ride when you turn it up.

"Carnival ride" is a pretty good one yeah.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

The "problem" that everyone is trying to solve: finding gear (normally an amp) that makes you sound better than your current skill level at playing guitar/recording amps.

Is it even possible? Not at playing guitar. At recording? Technically kind of yes, but not in the way that most people think.

I am going to use a Dungeons and Dragons metaphor because it seems like the best way to explain this

What no one seems to realize is you need to start out as the "guitarist" class, take enough levels to get the "incredible right hand technique" feat. Then multiclass, put skill points into "critical listening," and dump a bunch of levels into "recording engineer."

You need to "multiclass" before you get that specific feat/ability (amps that make you sound even better than your skill level)

I repeat: it's not going to fucking matter until you get to a certain level of recording and guitar skill. And that is a pretty high level. Everyone wants a fuckin shortcut, and there isn't one

And once you dump a bunch of levels into recording, you can make almost any amp sound great (or shitty, if youre trying to portray it that way) anyways, which makes it less beneficial.


Yes, high end amps can synergize with your skills to get incredible tones. But it doesn't work like that unless you have a certain level of skills in the first place, and it's a long hard road.

No, if you're the average hobbyist, or even an above average one like Reza, a wizard or larry or whatever else isn't going to be "magic" to you because you don't have the "prerequisites" for the "class feat" anyways.

This is honestly a pretty good way to think about it.

• playing guitar
• writing good music
• choosing gear that works for what you're after
• making it sound good through a mic

... these are all entirely separate skills needed to bring the fuckin rock, all of them requiring knowledge and practice. I'm not sure I know of anybody who has mastered all of them.

Recording great sounding high gain guitar from scratch is not remotely an easy task. There are people who are good at it and can do it relatively quickly, sure, but they're rare and have years, usually decades, of experience. To go from nothing to being able to do that takes a loooot more time and effort than most guys realize.

I'll also be the first to tell you that I cheat like crazy to get the sounds I get, lol. Ok maybe it's not "cheating" but it is pretty unorthodox. I don't use traditinal recording techniques, as much as I'd like to. Not that I consider myself an expert or anything, but in case anybody might be wondering, I don't use real cabs and mics, mostly because I don't have the freedom with volume I'd need to do it right. I have cabs and mics for the rare occasions I can use them, but silent recording is just so much more convenient and flexible for me that it tends to be my go-to.

For a while I used IR's, but I don't use those anymore either. A while back I saw Kevin Suhr do a video for a box he designed called a Suhr ACE (analog cab emulator). Basically it's an EQ purpose built to emulate an old Marshall 4x12 Greenback cab, plus you get high and low cut controls and a wide-band Treble knob that extends down into the upper mids, basically a smoothness control. It's the one analog cab sim I've heard that doesn't suck. I run my amps into either an OG Suhr RL or a Fractal X-Load, and then the ACE. And after that I run post EQ, nothing extreme, usually just additional high and low pass filters, plus a few +- 1-3 db changes here and there depending on what's going on.

I tried to refine the blend of IR's I used for years, really tweaking them, trying to get them exactly right. Then this fucking thing comes out and I try it, and compared to my IR's, it destroyed them, lol. So I use that now. Plus, it's analog, so there's no conversion lag. I'd recommend it to anybody, I think it sounds great. And while it's obviously not the same as using a real cab and mic, it's actually not too far off.

 

[Beyond Black]

since we’re (somewhat) on the topic of Marks, is it safe to say that the IIC+ HRG RI is a worthy replacement to your old IIC++ SG? the HRG RI is literally in stock at Sweetwater, yet the limited run IIC++ RI is going for 9k plus… crossing my fingers that the HRG RI cannibalizes it.

also hoping to cover the ground that the VH140c does, specifically OSDM. i heard the clips you have up of it and i can see how the IIC++ could do a better version of that, but can Marks do that old Suffocation - irrationally scooped - get buried in any live mix thing that VH140c is known for? that’s a fun sound i’ve been chasing for a while, but there’s no way i could justify current VH140c prices. if i can kill 2 birds with one stone ie Metallica tone chasing & OSDM tone chasing via the HRG RI, that would be perfect.

Yes it is a worthy replacement. The HRG RI absolutely kills and is as good, if not better than any vintage C+, depending on your taste (same goes for the Recto RI). If you prefer a more vintage flavor, the OG is your amp. If you’re cool with a slightly more modern sounding C+, get a RI. The bottom line is the RI is still a raw, vicious beast that’s 100% C+ and in no way sounds sterile, filtered, or polite like many modern amps.
If cash was a non factor, I’d still have both, because they are still different enough to justify that. In my case, I’m just as happy with the RI and the extra scratch.
As far as the ridiculous prices that the ++’s are going for, only a fool would spend more on a RI than what the OG’s are going for because “mEtAlLiCa ++ dRg.” It’s a $5.00 mod ffs and pulling the treble and bright knobs will get you close enough as far as saturation and additional gain go. If your amp is on Mike B’s bench, paying extra for the ++ mod is worth it. If it means spending an additional $4k plus for a RI to have it, fuck to the NO.
A C+ RI can do the scooped OSDM sound all day long and then some. I sold my VH140C because my OG ++ could nail that tone and do it better, with more punch, aggression and far better clarity.
If you’re considering an HRG RI for Metallica and OSDM toans, I can say with 100% certainty that you should do it ASAP.

 

[DanTravis62]

This is honestly a pretty good way to think about it.

• playing guitar
• writing good music
• choosing gear that works for what you're after
• making it sound good through a mic

... these are all entirely separate skills needed to bring the fuckin rock, all of them requiring knowledge and practice. I'm not sure I know of anybody who has mastered all of them.

Andy Sneap? There's a handful out there that have gotten all of them, or three of four, on RT at least. It's not impossible. But what it does require is significant time investment - like, I'm talking "interfere with your job and life" type time investment. Which I don't think most people would (or should) be willing to do.

I've got all these check boxes, though I certainly haven't mastered any of them except for probably the playing guitar part. And it's severely damaged other aspects of my life, man. I've sacrificed other things to be able to do it. So I understand when other people don't think it's worth it - i'm just saying, you have to have most or all of these boxes checked, for one of these really expensive niche amps to really be able to give you the goods.

It seems like the vast majority of buyers of these amps think it's going to be a "shortcut" when it isn't any such thing. It's not going to matter for the average hobbyist.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

It seems like the vast majority of buyers of these amps think it's going to be a "shortcut" when it isn't any such thing. It's not going to matter for the average hobbyist.

Yeah any chain of components is only as strong as the weakest link. The chain btw starts in the player's brain and ends at the listener's ears. If the playing and the dialing isn't on point, the fact that you have a [insert individual piece of gear here] that is rare and expensive and was made by lone monk on a mountaintop isn't going to matter. Good gear won't make you sound talented. Instead, the best gear arguably only raises the ceiling for how good the sound can be. But you're not going to reach that ceiling without substantial effort and knowledge. There are no shortcuts, unfortunately, hah.

 

[no.mids.brando]

This is honestly a pretty good way to think about it.

• playing guitar
• writing good music
• choosing gear that works for what you're after
• making it sound good through a mic

... these are all entirely separate skills needed to bring the fuckin rock, all of them requiring knowledge and practice. I'm not sure I know of anybody who has mastered all of them.

Recording great sounding high gain guitar from scratch is not remotely an easy task. There are people who are good at it and can do it relatively quickly, sure, but they're rare and have years, usually decades, of experience. To go from nothing to being able to do that takes a loooot more time and effort than most guys realize.

I'll also be the first to tell you that I cheat like crazy to get the sounds I get, lol. Ok maybe it's not "cheating" but it is pretty unorthodox. I don't use traditinal recording techniques, as much as I'd like to. Not that I consider myself an expert or anything, but in case anybody might be wondering, I don't use real cabs and mics, mostly because I don't have the freedom with volume I'd need to do it right. I have cabs and mics for the rare occasions I can use them, but silent recording is just so much more convenient and flexible for me that it tends to be my go-to.

For a while I used IR's, but I don't use those anymore either. A while back I saw Kevin Suhr do a video for a box he designed called a Suhr ACE (analog cab emulator). Basically it's an EQ purpose built to emulate an old Marshall 4x12 Greenback cab, plus you get high and low cut controls and a wide-band Treble knob that extends down into the upper mids, basically a smoothness control. It's the one analog cab sim I've heard that doesn't suck. I run my amps into either an OG Suhr RL or a Fractal X-Load, and then the ACE. And after that I run post EQ, nothing extreme, usually just additional high and low pass filters, plus a few +- 1-3 db changes here and there depending on what's going on.

I tried to refine the blend of IR's I used for years, really tweaking them, trying to get them exactly right. Then this fucking thing comes out and I try it, and compared to my IR's, it destroyed them, lol. So I use that now. Plus, it's analog, so there's no conversion lag. I'd recommend it to anybody, I think it sounds great. And while it's obviously not the same as using a real cab and mic, it's actually not too far off.

def are totally different skill sets involved in what most would see as the same thing. and i think a major hurdle isn’t necessarily a lack of skill, but a lack of a good room/treatment. a good example is this Rick Beato vid.



he copied the same mic, mic position, and cab as the guy that did the new Deftones album (u47, SM57, and a ribbon mic) but Beato’s tone sounds way worse, and i don’t think it’s the difference in amp head.

in Beato’s live room (4:59) the cab is freestanding with no treatment. the room itself looks treated, but this is really different to what Nick Raskulinecz’s did with a nearly identical setup (0:47). He has the cab on a small strip of carpet. foam on the sides and in front. it seems like a small enough difference to skip, especially if your room is already treated, but clearly it’s not.

if i had to pinpoint the issue w Beato’s tone, it would be comb filtering. it has this phasy ness that sounds awful, even tho the Metalltronix is supposed to be a worse amp then the Marshall he used. after watching this video, i thought back to Hetfield’s “tent of doom” moving blanket situation, and isolation cabs in general.

no matter how skilled you are in a general audio engineering sense, there will always be difficulties like these that come when doing high gain.

tl dr: mastering this along with guitar itself is hard.

 

[no.mids.brando]

Yes it is a worthy replacement. The HRG RI absolutely kills and is as good, if not better than any vintage C+, depending on your taste (same goes for the Recto RI). If you prefer a more vintage flavor, the OG is your amp. If you’re cool with a slightly more modern sounding C+, get a RI. The bottom line is the RI is still a raw, vicious beast that’s 100% C+ and in no way sounds sterile, filtered, or polite like many modern amps.
If cash was a non factor, I’d still have both, because they are still different enough to justify that. In my case, I’m just as happy with the RI and the extra scratch.
As far as the ridiculous prices that the ++’s are going for, only a fool would spend more on a RI than what the OG’s are going for because “mEtAlLiCa ++ dRg.” It’s a $5.00 mod ffs and pulling the treble and bright knobs will get you close enough as far as saturation and additional gain go. If your amp is on Mike B’s bench, paying extra for the ++ mod is worth it. If it means spending an additional $4k plus for a RI to have it, fuck to the NO.
A C+ RI can do the scooped OSDM sound all day long and then some. I sold my VH140C because my OG ++ could nail that tone and do it better, with more punch, aggression and far better clarity.
If you’re considering an HRG RI for Metallica and OSDM toans, I can say with 100% certainty that you should do it ASAP.

hell yea well now i have something semi reasonable to save for, awesome