italoop
Active member
Mike In A Box!
Exo-metal
Well-known member
Those sound great, really nice. I'm using 3 mono delays for that type of sound. I bought an 81 and sold it. I just didnt gel with it and programming it seemed like a long process.
italoop
Active member
Thanks!
Unfortunately the TSC is a more complex thing than just 3 mono choruses. There's a lot more going on in the original unit. Waveshaping!
Here's how it works:
Exo-metal
Well-known member
I don't think I'm missing much using what I have. A true stereo split using two mono delays is the basis for spatial chorus effect. Using the third delay adds more depth to the effect but you know all this already. let me say I always appreciate your work, it is next level but I have to use what I got. The price of the Eventide stuff is beyond what I'm willing to spend so I use the basics.
If you take suggestions for tutorials do one on the basics on how to achive the same effect with simple gear, I'm sure everyone here would really benifit. I think i speak for everyone when I say we always look forward to your clips!
If you take suggestions for tutorials do one on the basics on how to achive the same effect with simple gear, I'm sure everyone here would really benifit. I think i speak for everyone when I say we always look forward to your clips!
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italoop
Active member
I wish things were as you say, but unfortunately they aren't. You can't make a TriStrereoChorus with three delay lines, in terms of what the classic unit does. Spatial efx are very complicated as they require an art of tricking the ear into unreal panoramic design (truly unreal) or special ones.
A trick often used is the Haas effect (or precedence efx) which "tells" the ear something is in a different position vs. something else (2 delay lines) but the fact is that it's not true. It works on psycho-acoustic illusion based on human ear "imperfections"... which are truly necessary or we would have problems at locating sounds when no vision is possible. But this technique is based on 2 delays. When you add the third... things get complicated and the spatial imaging collapses- That's one of the challenges 5.1 audio had to face for the three front speakers, where the center one would destroy the stereoness/spatial content of the front left and right speakers.
So... removing the third delay would actually make things much wider... I know it sounds absurd but that's how ear works.
Now... the clip I posted shows the mighty TSC effect in all its glory built on a Lexicon PCM80 or 81, not necessarily on an Eventide. The link to the H8000FW version is to show and explain what goes on in the TSC on a visual example the H8000FW large display and its great functions allow to demonstrate. It's like a lab! When you do waveshaping, summing multiple LFOs waveforms into a delay, at least 2, the 2 waves create a third one which has two periods summed, thus taking up chracteristics from both original waves. THAT'S what makes the TSC special and actually truly spatial.
The PCM80 or 81 are very cheap these days; you don't need an H8000FW. A PCM goes for the price of a Strymon... and considering it does a lot more than any pedal and a lot better than any group of pedals... I think it's a hell of a deal to bring home what used to sell for 2500/3000$ for 400 to 700. Right?
Yeah... you are somehow comforting about "we always look forward to your clips"... but man, it's such a dead place!
I mean... talking about what one sees and hears would be the basis of understanding/advise/development/choices.... you know, the fun stuff.
cheers
I
Exo-metal
Well-known member
It's possible my intelliverb can do this? I have a prochorus but that's multi tap on a single line. To be clear, I wasn't trying to reproduce the TSC. I only used two mono lines panned hard L/R for basic chorusing and the third was a short delay panned hard R to double the image before it was chorused.
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italoop
Active member
No, the Intelliverb can't do TSC. I had one for a couple of years back in the mid '90s. I got rid of it because I also had a TC1210 and a PCM70... so it really had no reason to stay. The 8v chorus is nice but MONO IN... they messed up Holdsworth design for those units.
Prochorus is nice... yes you have one single multitap delay and the taps go out in stereo, but it's much nicer sounding than Intellifex/Intelliverb chorusing.
I know... you couldn't even try to do TSC with the 3 delays.... I just wanted to explain why and how the thing works.
Prochorus is nice... yes you have one single multitap delay and the taps go out in stereo, but it's much nicer sounding than Intellifex/Intelliverb chorusing.
I know... you couldn't even try to do TSC with the 3 delays.... I just wanted to explain why and how the thing works.
Exo-metal
Well-known member
I was going to ask if you could do it with three Yamaha D1500s since they all have:
- Sine and square LFO waveforms
- Full range of effects including chorusing, phasing, flanging, doppler, ADT, repeat echo, hold-and-repeat etc.
italoop
Active member
There is no digital delay that can do TSC.... no matter the number of units.
If you look carefully at the H8000 tutorial on waveshaping you should understand that each delay is being fed by two LFOs...
Look at the summed waveform... what do you see?
Watch that and come back if you need explanations....
Exo-metal
Well-known member
That's unfortunate. Looks like a rotation of 3 alternating waves going positive and negative. So in your opinion what is the most affordable way to execute the effect properly without spending a lot? Any other suggestions besides Lexicon or Eventide....it's worth asking.
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italoop
Active member
I don't know how cheap this should/could be, but the point is that one needs a machine with the proper software which has the functions and the freedom to allow this kind of design. I don't see any pedal doing TSC correctly nor I believe the pedal solution is technically correct (inserting time based efx after preamp is the best way to go. I would never feed a chorus or delay or reverb to a hard clipping tube amp) and definitely not cheaper. Again, a PCM80 is cheaper than most pedals with MIDI, presets, a display....
I paid more for my Strymon Volante than my PCM81! Can you believe that? And it does tape better than the Strymon... with much better control.
So... unfortunately I don't have the answer you would like to read.
Exo-metal
Well-known member
If you told me programming the 80 to do this was simple I would buy one.
italoop
Active member
It's not difficult per se.... the thing is one needs to get to know how something works and then recreate it on the machine.
It took me quite a while to find out how the TSC really works.... and put my hands and ears on one of them.
I like doin' these kind of things, it's in my nature,. But I'm also a musician by trade and study.... so technology and music keep me busy.
So I might jump from bitonal pendulums practice on my guitar to waveshaping on my gear.... or learn ways to use piano A/B voicings (3rd+7th or 7th+3rd with a triad on top) on guitar and create a system for my students... and dive into cascading delays technique.... in my average day.
I do not like "buy and nuke" gear. I am past that kind of stuff, thanks god as I started using gizmos in the mid '70s and in time I learned to value deepening knowledge and technology that reflects it in possibilities offered to the end user. So I value and keep things that not only sound good but also have the immense value in developing stuff. My PCM80 landed in may hands when it came out, mid '90s, and stayed with me since then... actually I added a PCM81 to it and disclosed an unbelievable power by using the two together. And I still find stuff in there....
And creating presets libraries is another work in progress I do so that others can benefit from my long learning process and experience and learn things much faster than what I did.... All I described is all I do.
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Exo-metal
Well-known member
Unless there is some description of the process that makes this reasonably attainable it becomes check out this mysterious clip that leads nowhere and that is less than productive to the forum.
italoop
Active member
Forum needs to be way much more interested and active than dead. Knowing that you need two waveforms pumped to each of three delays is more than enough info at the moment.
Exo-metal
Well-known member
What else do you expect if you aren't open about the process? This is not going to open any doors for more involvment and you should reconsider your position.
If you opened up how to do this to a pcm80/81 you would be surprised who gets involved, it won't just be me and you know it. Open the door my friend.
If you opened up how to do this to a pcm80/81 you would be surprised who gets involved, it won't just be me and you know it. Open the door my friend.
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italoop
Active member
Actually no, I don't know who would get involved and I think you should speak for yourself. One counts for one. And you don't have a PCM or possibly anything that can even do this effect properly. You have plenty of info to start working....
Exo-metal
Well-known member
We'll get started once I find one then. One for one.
italoop
Active member
I'm not disclosing my work. You can discuss pointing in the direction of building an effect with me.
Exo-metal
Well-known member
If I'm going to commit to the point of buying an 80 and learn it's basics you have to give direction that isn't vague, we're a team at that point. One for one...you see it through so I have the effect above.