Libtard village in Seattle.

[Shevek]

Do you consider Trump's 34 felony convictions for falsifying business records measurably more evil than the presidents who owned slaves, had enemies tortured, facilitated illegal weapons sales that resulted in deaths, facilitated the trail of tears, had Japanese Americans placed in internment camps, and/or facilitated non-consensual human experimentation?

There's an important distinction between comparing Trump's 34 convictions with historical atrocities and comparing Trump's overall conduct as president with that of previous presidents.

Also, evil isn't really measurable.

Of course the things you mentioned are horrible. I would consider them evil.
Some of Trump's worst crimes would include the murder of 168 innocent school girls in Iran, and murdering dozens of people in the Caribbean on boats.

Trump has placed thousands of people into arbitrary ICE concentration camps in horrible conditions with no charges. Many of them were legitimate immigrants and even some US citizens.

On a different matter, but also significant, would be his contribution to degrading and undermining democracy in the most powerful nation on Earth. He tried to seize power and prevent the peaceful transfer of the presidency. That's a different kind of evil.

 

[VonBonfire]

Also, evil isn't really measurable.

It kind of is.

 

[Shevek]

It kind of is.

How?

 

[VonBonfire]

How?

While I would say all sin is wrong I would suggest that someone who kills for pleasure is more "evil" than someone who steals for profit. I'm open to debate.

 

[Shevek]

While I would say all sin is wrong I would suggest that someone who kills for pleasure is more "evil" than someone who steals for profit. I'm open to debate.

Sure, but how can it be measured?

 

[VonBonfire]

Sure, but how can it be measured?

Great point, and I sort of agree, but you kind of just did measure it, no? Certain crimes are considered more reprehensible to most people than others. Rape and pedophilia for example tend to sit high on that list of evil deeds. Perhaps it's just me and you measuring it using our human standards rather than the Lord's divine ones. What do you think?

 

[84superchamp]

The infinity of the universe. I can't wrap my head around how there's just no end. And if there were an end, what's outside of it.

Quantum mechanics. I've only dabbled at/with it but it's tough sledding.

Electron pair spin. A pair of electrons have opposite spin. Separate them and change the spin on one, the other changes, instantly. You can separate them by a billion light years and it still happens instantly. ????

There's more. Why does my S.O. say "I'm fine" when she's anything but fine.

Sorry to cause you so much research time, you invested.


Wait....not sorry.

 

[84superchamp]

Presidential Misconduct, Financial Scandals, & Abuse of Power​

1. Ulysses S. Grant — Systematic Corruption & The Whiskey Ring (1870s)​

• The Offenses: Unlawful diversion of federal tax revenue, bribery, and obstruction of justice.
• Details: While Grant was not personally indicted for stealing funds, his administration was riddled with criminal conspiracies. The most severe was the Whiskey Ring, in which government officials and distillers siphoned off millions in tax revenues through bribery. Grant personally intervened to protect his private secretary, Orville Babcock, who was indicted in the conspiracy, by providing written deposition testimony in his defense.

2. George W. Bush — Torture, Extrajudicial Rendition, & Mass Surveillance (2000s)​

• The Offenses: Violations of the U.S. Anti-Torture Statute, Geneva Conventions, and federal wiretapping laws.
• Details: Following the September 11 attacks, the Bush administration authorized covert CIA "black site" interrogations utilizing methods internationally recognized as torture (including waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and stress positions). The administration also authorized extraordinary rendition (secretly kidnapping suspects to transfer them to countries where torture was permitted) and created the NSA's warrantless domestic surveillance program without court warrants, bypassing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

3. Dwight D. Eisenhower — Human Rights Violations in MKUltra & Covert Coups (1950s)​

• The Offenses: Non-consensual human experimentation, illegal covert foreign interventions, and targeted assassinations.
• Details: In 1953, President Eisenhower’s administration approved Project MKUltra, a covert CIA initiative that tested psychoactive drugs (such as LSD), sensory deprivation, and psychological torture techniques on unwitting American and Canadian citizens without informed consent. Additionally, Eisenhower authorized covert CIA operations to overthrow democratically elected governments in Iran (1953) and Guatemala (1954).

4. Lyndon B. Johnson — Unlawful Domestic Surveillance & Civil Rights Spying (1960s)​

• The Offenses: Violations of the CIA Charter (National Security Act of 1947) prohibiting domestic intelligence gathering.
• Details: To monitor anti-war protesters and civil rights leaders, President Johnson directed federal agencies to spy on U.S. citizens domestically. This led to Operation CHAOS, a massive CIA surveillance program that collected files on tens of thousands of American dissidents, as well as expanded FBI wiretapping under COINTELPRO against figures like Martin Luther King Jr.

Executive Overreach & Civil Liberties Violations​

5. Abraham Lincoln — Suspension of Habeas Corpus (1861)​

• The Offenses: Unconstitutional suspension of civil liberties and unauthorized executive detention.
• Details: At the start of the American Civil War, President Lincoln unilaterally suspended the writ of habeas corpus without congressional approval, allowing military authorities to arrest and detain thousands of Confederate sympathizers and anti-war newspaper editors without trial. When Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled in Ex parte Merryman that only Congress held the constitutional authority to suspend the writ, Lincoln ignored the court order.

6. Thomas Jefferson — Enforcement of the Embargo Act of 1807​

• The Offenses: Unconstitutional search and seizure and warrantless military enforcement against citizens.
• Details: To enforce a strict trade embargo against Britain and France, Jefferson authorized federal agents and naval officers to search homes, seize merchant ships, and confiscate cargo without standard judicial warrants, leading critics to accuse him of violating Fourth Amendment protections.

Summary Overview​

President	Era	Core Allegations / Acts	Outcome / Resolution
Ulysses S. Grant	1870s	Tax evasion conspiracies (Whiskey Ring), widespread cabinet graft.	Dozens of officials convicted; Grant defended top aides.
Dwight D. Eisenhower	1950s	MKUltra human testing, secret foreign regime change.	Uncovered by Church Committee investigations in 1970s.
Lyndon B. Johnson	1960s	Domestic CIA spying on anti-war protesters (Operation CHAOS).	Declassified in 1970s; restricted by Church Committee reforms.
George W. Bush	2000s	Torture programs, extrajudicial rendition, warrantless surveillance.	Red Cross & Senate reports cited torture; surveillance codified/reformed later.

This is why I do so much reading here; seriously in-depth research providing accurate information. Lefty lies don't stand a chance and that's all they got.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

I have to agree with the argument you presented here. Nicely done.

My leaning on the 34 vs 0 is that we have a number, actual numerical data to support my case. I have never said it is the only thing that makes him the worst president. I used the word measurable for a reason.

Any other point, is open to argument and by god, Hatter would argue every one. What I find interesting is that he mentioned both Lincoln and Washington earlier. The thought that Trump is in any way comparable to either of those presidents is laughable in the extreme.

Interred Japanese Americans? Look at all the innocents in Alligator Alcatraz.

Name another president that started an unprovoked war and invaded a foreign country without provocation? Bush Jr had an, albeit weak, excuse but he had one. And there was no Iran nuke.

Name another president who invaded and kidnapped a foreign head of state?

Name another president who fought the peaceful transfer of power and fomented an insurrection?

Name another president who phoned a Sec. Of State basically asking him to falsify the voting records?

I could go on and on but I'm frankly tired of this.

Worst president ever. By the numbers and by his acts.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

Sorry to cause you so much research time, you invested.


Wait....not sorry.

Lol. No research was involved in me listing a few things that I find impossible to totally understand.

Sorry, not sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Robostyle]

I respond in the fashion I am responded to.

Lies.

 

[84superchamp]

Lol. No research was involved in me listing a few things that I find impossible to totally understand.

Sorry, not sorry to burst your bubble.

It's ok, I'm feeling fatigued anyway.

 

[VonBonfire]

Worst president ever. By the numbers and by his acts.

I'd argue it's a matter of perspective but you are entitled to your thoughts as anyone else would be.

Appointing people who endorsed torture, and allowing it continue to happen at Guantanamo is pretty severe. Being party to the conspiracy that brought down the twin towers and cost us many freedoms is also pretty bad. Starting a war over yellowcake uranium that didn't exist, and n00ks which aren't real, costing thousands of US lives also ranks up there for me. All presidents are mostly trash, take your pick and fire away.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

I'd argue it's a matter of perspective but you are entitled to your thoughts as anyone else would be.

Appointing people who endorsed torture, and allowing it continue to happen at Guantanamo is pretty severe. Being party to the conspiracy that brought down the twin towers and cost us many freedoms is also pretty bad. Starting a war over yellowcake uranium that didn't exist, and n00ks which aren't real, costing thousands of US lives also ranks up there for me. All presidents are mostly trash, take your pick and fire away.

I agree, all horrible things to do.

What tilts the table for me is Trump's purposeful destruction of the democratic process. Without that, everything else is dirt.

The pedo thing is pretty repugnant too.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Democratic process ? Like Installing Harris as the nominee ?

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

Democratic process ? Like Installing Harris as the nominee ?

What laws were broken?

 

[VonBonfire]

I agree, all horrible things to do.

What tilts the table for me is Trump's purposeful destruction of the democratic process. Without that, everything else is dirt.

The pedo thing is pretty repugnant too.

Fair enough, but I consider torture completely unjustifiable. Take a dive into what was going on at Guantanamo, pretty foul.

As for pedophilia, I believe they are all involved, not just Trump. It's part of being one of the elite in society now. Human sacrifice, blood drinking, child abduction, torture. Thousands, tens of thousands, are party to those crimes.

Democratic process ? Like Installing Harris as the nominee ?

Yeah, or dumping black Jasmine Crockett on her head for a white twerp named Talarico since his skin tone and fake christian persona are the sort of optics that make him more electable to a lot of Texans. I doubt it's going to work. He's a nut, and has that pedo look about him.

 

[Floyd Eye]

What laws were broken?

Broken by the DNC just choosing their candidate after grampa was duly nominated by the American people ? I don't know. Tell me what laws Trump broke in his evil plan to destroy the democratic process ? Is he under indictment for these crimes ? Why not ?

 

[Uzi Nein Millimetah]

Democratic process ? Like Installing Harris as the nominee ?

The Dims also installed Bidum himself during the previous cycle, when Communist Bernie Sanders would have won otherwise based on the ignorant Dim voters. But apparently Bernie got a nice payoff for it.

 

[Floyd Eye]

The Dims also installed Bidum himself during the previous cycle, when Communist Bernie Sanders would have won otherwise based on the ignorant Dim voters. But apparently Bernie got a nice payoff for it.

They did that to him twice. First to install Killary.