School me on handguns

Findthetone1 said:
I should clarify my statement by saying that I meant that a revolver is a perfect first choice for new handgun owners and IMO a great platform to learn on. Training was implied but not stated. Train,train...and then train more.
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I understood what you were saying and what you meant, just wanted to stress the training part a bit more.
 
Floyd I said:
Totally fair assessment. However, if like me you don't care for Glock grip angle or Glock triggers you can say the exact same thing about a VP9 or Walther PDP or M&P Shield. The only Glock I ever liked wasn't even a Glock. It was a Shadow Systems with the 1911 grip insert.
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100%. I personally like 1911/single action type pistols.

As for the OP of this thread:

When I went through MP training in the Army we went through a module where you were in a room and one of the people in the room were going to come at you. You did not know who and you did not know when. You were supposed to unholster your side arm and engage the target before he got on you.

I was amazing how many times the assailant disarmed the MP before they could engage them.

Point of that lesson was how easy it is for that sidearm to do nothing for you and even be turned against you.

That is for people who knew what was going to happen. Now think about it this way. It is 3am. Dark outside. You are asleep and awakened by someone in your house. You don’t have formal firearms training. This is a sub-optimal scrnario and the odds are not in the homeowners favor. Your worst day at the range is the best you can hope for.

Friends of mine who are inexperienced with firearms and ask me about a home defense firearm, I steer them towards a pump action shotgun. You rack that shotgun and most people will turn and go in fhe other direction. It has less penetration and doesn’t require the precision a hamdgun requres should you have to discharge a round.

Just my $0.02.
 
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GG4211 said:
100%. I personally like 1911/single action type pistols.

As for the OP of this thread:

When I went through MP training in the Army we went through a module where you were in a room and one of the people in the room were going to come at you. You did not know who and you did not know when. You were supposed to unholster your side arm and engage the target before he got on you.

I was amazing how many times the assailant disarmed the MP before they could engage them.

Point of that lesson was how easy it is for that sidearm to do nothing for you and even be turned against you.

That is for people who knew what was going to happen. Now think about it this way. It is 3am. Dark outside. You are asleep and awakened by someone in your house. You don’t have formal firearms training. This is a sub-optimal scrnario and the odds are not in the homeowners favor. Your worst day at the range is the best you can hope for.

Friends of mine who are inexperienced with firearms and ask me about a home defense firearm, I steer them towards a pump action shotgun. You rack that shotgun and most people will turn and go in fhe other direction. It has less penetration and doesn’t require the precision a hamdgun requres should you have to discharge a round.

Just my $0.02.
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With all due respect, the racking shotgun sound scaring people off is one of the most dangerous shotgun myths there is. I do agree an 18.5" 500 is a hell of a HD weapon. I am a self professed shotgun junkie though. I've spent many, many years training with them. I have more of them than I feel comfortable talking about.
If someone makes the choice to use a shotgun as a HD weapon it is imperative that they train hard with it. Adrenaline pumping through makes the simplest of manipulations a lot more difficult. I am also a training junkie. Regardless of what gun(s) you choose, training hard and often is important.
 
Please don’t tell people racking the slide on a pump shotgun will stop most assaults or that you don’t have to aim them. Terrible advice.
 
CRAIG4FSU said:
Please don’t tell people racking the slide on a pump shotgun will stop most assaults or that you don’t have to aim them. Terrible advice.
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Well let’s break this down:
  • You rack that shotgun and most people will turn and go in fhe other direction.
  • It has less penetration
  • Doesn’t require the precision a handgun requres should you have to discharge a round
So three points I made you focused on one. Definitely acknowledged the potential need to discharge a round, and pointed out the additional benefits in HD scenario should you have to. Did not claim the ravk is a 100% deterrent.

With that said you are incorrect. I did police work for a while when I got out of the Army. I responded to calls where people deployed a pump action shotgun and it served as a deterrent.

I believe the reports I wrote and incidents I responded to, not some web dogma.
 
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GG4211 said:
Well let’s break this down:
  • You rack that shotgun and most people will turn and go in fhe other direction.
  • It has less penetration
  • Doesn’t require the precision a handgun requres should you have to discharge a round
So three points I made you focused on one. Definitely acknowledged the potential need to discharge a round, and pointed out the additional benefits in HD scenario should you have to.

With that said you are incorrect. I did police work for a while when I got out of the Army. I responded to calls where people deployed a pump action shotgun and it served as a deterrent.

I believe the reports I wrote and incidents I responded to, not some web dogma.
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Again, with all due respect, it's not web dogma. I train with retired and active duty LEO and military. My primary instructor is a 20 year combat USMC vet and a 19 year police captain and was a marksmanship instructor both in the corps and for the cops. He's the guy that trains cops, including jump out boys. Neither him nor any other instructor I have ever taken a class from or even heard of, including Rob Haught and Clint Smith, would ever recommend "Racking" a pump shotgun as a possible deterrent. And I'll tell you why. If you are face to face with the boogeyman your gun better already be loaded and ready to fire because it takes less than 2 seconds to cover 12'. If you are in another room or somewhere out of view of the boogeyman and you rack your shotgun, as a deterrent, you have now given away your position ( opsec).

Clearing rooms in your house is "web dogma". Usually only banter between guys who post from their mom's basements. In a home invasion 99% of the time your best move is to stay put and stay quiet, behind cover, with 911 on the phone and your gun pointing in the direction the intruder has to come to gain access. Have a plan BEFORE you need a plan.

And IME, assuming we are not talking about a new gun owner or someone who doesn't know what the hell they are doing and hasn't trained with a shotgun, the best "Tactical" shotgun is either an M1014 or a 1301T, both automatics.
 
Floyd I said:
Again, with all due respect, it's not web dogma. I train with retired and active duty LEO and military. My primary instructor is a 20 year combat USMC vet and a 19 year police captain and was a marksmanship instructor both in the corps and for the cops. He's the guy that trains cops, including jump out boys. Neither him nor any other instructor I have ever taken a class from or even heard of, including Rob Haught and Clint Smith, would ever recommend "Racking" a pump shotgun as a possible deterrent. And I'll tell you why. If you are face to face with the boogeyman your gun better already be loaded and ready to fire because it takes less than 2 seconds to cover 12'. If you are in another room or somewhere out of view of the boogeyman and you rack your shotgun, as a deterrent, you have now given away your position ( opsec).

Clearing rooms in your house is "web dogma". Usually only banter between guys who post from their mom's basements. In a home invasion 99% of the time your best move is to stay put and stay quiet, behind cover, with 911 on the phone and your gun pointing in the direction the intruder has to come to gain access. Have a plan BEFORE you need a plan.

And IME, assuming we are not talking about a new gun owner or someone who doesn't know what the hell they are doing and hasn't trained with a shotgun, the best "Tactical" shotgun is either an M1014 or a 1301T, both automatics.
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You train with… so no actual tactical experience or LEO experience yourself? Just this trainers prrspective?
 
GG4211 said:
You train with… so no actual tactical experience or LEO experience yourself? Just this trainers prrspective?
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Just EVERY trainers perspective.

And I have been training with crayon eaters and special forces guys for nearly 2 decades. And while I wasn't military or LEO I probably have more actual "Tactical" experience than many that are/were. Were you ever in active combat? You ever been shot ? Or shot at? I am guessing like 80% of all LEO and military the answer is no. I also have more functioning knowledge about firearms, maintaining and using them than the majority of my friends who actually did see combat in Afghanistan, Iraq and South America. So just because you were in the army I am supposed to be impressed ? Lots of ex military guys come to me for work and advice. Police work you say? What kind of police work ? I have done police work as well. Were you a cop or did you just "Do police work"? By the way, it takes about 12 months of alleged training to be a cop. And I out shoot about 98% of the cops I train with and who use my range for quals. Most are fat bastards who shoot once a year.
 
Frankly the fact that you suggest racking a shotgun as a tactical maneuver tells me all I need to know about your training.
 
Floyd I said:
Frankly the fact that you suggest racking a shotgun as a tactical maneuver tells me all I need to know about your training.
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And there is the TGP pivot roght there? Who said it was a tactical “maneuver”.

Some of you TGP refugees have this deeply ingrained need to try to police other peoples words and actions.

That shit doesn’t fly here. With all you people coming over to RT it will be as big of a shithole as TGP in no time.

You are a typical tacti-cool type, throwing model #s around, lofty opinions with no real experience to back it up.. No combat experience, no leo experience. But you will argue with decorated combat vets and leos.
 
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GG4211 said:
And there is the TGP pivot roght there? Who said it was a tactical “maneuver”.

Some of you TGP refugees have this deeply ingrained need to try to police other peoples words and actions.

That shit doesn’t fly here. With all you people coming over to RT it will be as big of a shithole as TGP in no time.

You are a typical tacti-cool type. No combat experience, no leo experience. But yoj will argue with decorated combat vets and leos.
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That's bullshit. You don't know anything about me. Most of my friends are decorated combat vets and leo.

Were you a cop ? How many years in the army, where did you serve and were you in combat ?

Even if the answer to all of that is no and even if I think you're being a dick and making judgements based on shit you don't know, I still have to say thank you for your service. Now quit being a dick and quit spouting internet bullshit about scaring people with shotguns racking. It's dangerous shit to be filling people's heads with. With all the new gun owners over the last few years and all the people carrying guns who have no fucking clue what they are doing, you have a responsibility not to make them believe in fairy tales and other shit that can get them killed.

I mean unless you can give me one example of a combat vet or someone with some actual credibility that suggests it is a good idea to A) have your shotgun unloaded until a threat is present and B) using cycling the action to try to scare someone. That alone breaks one of the golden rules of gun handling. Don't pull a gun unless you have to use it. Pointing a gun at someone to scare them is ridiculous and usually illegal.
 
Also it's not fair to call me a TGP anything. I haven't been on that site in years and 99% of the people there I would never associate with.
 
Floyd I said:
That's bullshit. You don't know anything about me. Most of my friends are decorated combat vets and leo.

Were you a cop ? How many years in the army, where did you serve and were you in combat ?

Even if the answer to all of that is no and even if I think you're being a dick and making judgements based on shit you don't know, I still have to say thank you for your service. Now quit being a dick and quit spouting internet bullshit about scaring people with shotguns racking. It's dangerous shit to be filling people's heads with. With all the new gun owners over the last few years and all the people carrying guns who have no fucking clue what they are doing, you have a responsibility not to make them believe in fairy tales and other shit that can get them killed.

I mean unless you can give me one example of a combat vet or someone with some actual credibility that suggests it is a good idea to A) have your shotgun unloaded until a threat is present and B) using cycling the action to try to scare someone. That alone breaks one of the golden rules of gun handling. Don't pull a gun unless you have to use it. Pointing a gun at someone to scare them is ridiculous and usually illegal.
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Wow you read a lot of words that were never said into things. You need reading comprehension training?

As for you and TGP you posted in the TGP Banned thread, so we just know what you say and how you say it.
 
GG4211 said:
And there is the TGP pivot roght there? Who said it was a tactical “maneuver”.

Some of you TGP refugees have this deeply ingrained need to try to police other peoples words and actions.

That shit doesn’t fly here. With all you people coming over to RT it will be as big of a shithole as TGP in no time.

You are a typical tacti-cool type, throwing model #s around, lofty opinions with no real experience to back it up.. No combat experience, no leo experience. But you will argue with decorated combat vets and leos.
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That's a hilariously lame argument to support your position, but keep the entertainment coming.

I'll go with Clint Smith's position, not that it aids in the dick swinging circle jerk.
 
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