And just like that the Bankrupt USA is going to moon all of a sudden...............

[IndyWS6]

I’m jumping in late on this as usual, so, apologies…

A few comments;
1) My uncle (dad’s side, 1 of 7…), was an engineer on the Manhattan Project. He’s been gone a long time (they all have…) and I was really young when they would talk about it. My take on the conversation was that it was clearly Top Secret and those that didn’t need to know, didn’t. Those that did, and there were hundreds, did. He needed to know, so he did. He knew exactly what he was working towards.
2) VBF seems to think, with respect to space, nuclear weapons, etc., that it’s fake and he would only believe it if he experienced it for himself. Correct me if I’m wrong. Is that true for everything a person hasn’t personally experienced? It’s all fake until you see it for yourself? You’ve never seen “God”, but you clearly believe. Claiming “faith” for that seems like a convenience. To be clear, I’m not knocking your religion or faith, but it feels very hypocritical to fervently believe in one thing that can’t be proved while dismissing others…

 

[VonBonfire]

2) VBF seems to think, with respect to space, nuclear weapons, etc., that it’s fake and he would only believe it if he experienced it for himself. Correct me if I’m wrong. Is that true for everything a person hasn’t personally experienced? It’s all fake until you see it for yourself? You’ve never seen “God”, but you clearly believe. Claiming “faith” for that seems like a convenience. To be clear, I’m not knocking your religion or faith, but it feels very hypocritical to fervently believe in one thing that can’t be proved while dismissing others…

Nobody can look on the face of God and live. You can only know God through Christ.

It's a matter of trust. I don't trust people who get paid to work for the government. Maybe they are truthful, maybe they aren't. I trust the testimonies of the saints and martyrs who died for the faith. I trust the archaeological and historical record with regard to biblical matters. I trust in my own experiences with a great number of churches, most of which are just a waste of a good sunday morning. So it comes as no suprise that most of the west has invented a christ of their own design, or just discarded the christian religion altogether which is aso logical in light of some of what I have heard in here since they seem think an all loving god is a doormat for whatever nonsense they have invented for themselves to live by.

 

[IndyWS6]

Nobody can look on the face of God and live. You can only know God through Christ.

It's a matter of trust. I don't trust people who get paid to work for the government. Maybe they are truthful, maybe they aren't. I trust the testimonies of the saints and martyrs who died for the faith. I trust the archaeological and historical record with regard to biblical matters. I trust in my own experiences with a great number of churches, most of which are just a waste of a good sunday morning. So it comes as no suprise that most of the west has invented a christ of their own design, or just discarded the christian religion altogether which is aso logical in light of some of what I have heard in here since they seem think an all loving god is a doormat for whatever nonsense they have invented for themselves to live by.

Isn’t it possible that the “saints and martyrs” were professing what was self-serving at the time and positioning themselves for power and influence, absent of any true religious connotations? Why are their actions held as virtuous when, in a fact, they may have been looking to elevate their power positions? Everyone questions motives of current day people, but assumes the motives of the “biblical” forefathers were pure. I’m not buying it.

 

[JackTripper]

1) My uncle (dad’s side, 1 of 7…), was an engineer on the Manhattan Project. He’s been gone a long time (they all have…) and I was really young when they would talk about it. My take on the conversation was that it was clearly Top Secret and those that didn’t need to know, didn’t. Those that did, and there were hundreds, did. He needed to know, so he did. He knew exactly what he was working towards.

My understanding of that project was that it was intentionally compartmentalized for national security purposes. While people may have known what they were working towards in the tasks they were assigned, only a handful of individuals understood the weapon from top to bottom. Easier to manage. The fear was one of them defecting to a foreign adversary.

 

[JackTripper]

It's a matter of trust. I don't trust people who get paid to work for the government. Maybe they are truthful, maybe they aren't. I trust the testimonies of the saints and martyrs who died for the faith. I trust the archaeological and historical record with regard to biblical matters. I trust in my own experiences with a great number of churches, most of which are just a waste of a good sunday morning. So it comes as no suprise that most of the west has invented a christ of their own design, or just discarded the christian religion altogether which is aso logical in light of some of what I have heard in here since they seem think an all loving god is a doormat for whatever nonsense they have invented for themselves to live by.

You seem to not trust government, private, or corporate institutions or maybe even anything Western. Understandable. But you use the apparatus and systems that emanate from these institutions in your life on a daily basis—i.e., the Internet. Is that a contradiction--to lean into the fruits provided by the non-orthodox institutions you criticize? Is it heretical?

 

[IndyWS6]

My understanding of that project was that it was intentionally compartmentalized for national security purposes. While people may have known what they were working towards in the tasks they were assigned, only a handful of individuals understood the weapon from top to bottom. Easier to manage. The fear was one of them defecting to a foreign adversary.

Personal experience says “sort of”. My uncle knew they were developing a weapon. And what that weapon was. He was sworn to secrecy to keep that info in the “need to know” circle… That circle was not as small as the government (or people, in retrospect) think it was…

Related note… My dad was a certified pilot but manned a B-29 in the pacific theater as a right-wing gunner. I have dozens of pictures of bombing raids with P51 escorts and Mt. Fuji in the background. The best photo is a shot through the nose on the B-29 when the “surrender” documents were signed. Hundreds of planes flying overhead snd hundreds of vessels in Tokyo Bay..

 

[VonBonfire]

Isn’t it possible that the “saints and martyrs” were professing what was self-serving at the time and positioning themselves for power and influence, absent of any true religious connotations? Why are their actions held as virtuous when, in a fact, they may have been looking to elevate their power positions? Everyone questions motives of current day people, but assumes the motives of the “biblical” forefathers were pure. I’m not buying it.

So you've weighed the lives, actions, and motives of hundreds of thousands of people who've existed over the course of 2,000 years and found them wanting. I would suggest you don't really understand what it means to be a saint or martyr.

But you use the apparatus and systems that emanate from these institutions in your life on a daily basis—i.e., the Internet. Is that a contradiction--to lean into the fruits provided by the non-orthodox institutions you criticize? Is it heretical?

I guess if I denied the internet, or running water, or electricity were real, and then paid a monthly service fee, that might be considered a form of heresy, but it doesn't really have anything to do with religion so it's not heretical in the traditional sense unless your religion is science and you were denying those things existed while using them.

 

[Monkey Man]

"Small is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it." Matthrew 7:14

You guys are preaching something that doesn't align with scripture.

But hang on brother... Jesus said that there's no way to Heaven and eternal life except via Him.

In my book, that's a pretty-narrow definition and path. In addition to this, true repentance isn't for the faint-hearted.

That makes it a doubly-narrow path and for most, not an easy one. Just sayin'.

I would put one addition on this, which is just personal belief. Even if you don't "accept" Jesus, but have a good heart there's still the opportunity to gain eternal happiness. I put accept in quotes to account for all the non-Christian religions. In my mind if a person has a genuinely good heart, why should they automatically be denied because the belief system they were raised in didn't incorporate Jesus as the son of God or have never heard the Christian teachings (like those remote tribes you mentioned earlier).

I'd take this a step further to say If God is an all loving God that even an atheist has an opportunity at eternal life/happiness. If they lived their life with good in their heart, died, stood before the gates of heaven, and said "well shit God is real. I fucked that one up big time. Pease forgive me for my big mistake". I think an all loving God; knowing we are not infallible, could give an atheist a pass.

Only 2 problems with that:

1) It's declared many times in the Bible that one's "works" don't buy you anything. That's the trap most religions fall into - believing that a life of gentleness, kindness, love and empathy will somehow curry sufficient favour with God.

It's worth bearing in-mind the degree to which we sin, by God's standards (think Old Testament), most-often without even realising it. A life of works judged to be good by a human would be ripped to shreds by God.

2) As stated above, it's also made clear that there's only one "gate" to Heaven and that's Jesus Christ.

Of course, I totally get where you're coming from; anyone with a shred of empathy would.

 

[JackTripper]

Personal experience says “sort of”. My uncle knew they were developing a weapon. And what that weapon was. He was sworn to secrecy to keep that info in the “need to know” circle… That circle was not as small as the government (or people, in retrospect) think it was…

Related note… My dad was a certified pilot but manned a B-29 in the pacific theater as a right-wing gunner. I have dozens of pictures of bombing raids with P51 escorts and Mt. Fuji in the background. The best photo is a shot through the nose on the B-29 when the “surrender” documents were signed. Hundreds of planes flying overhead snd hundreds of vessels in Tokyo Bay..

Sure, the goal was to manage and limit the flow of info but in practice you are right it may have not played out that way.

Years ago I took a tour of the Nevada Testing Site. Basically, desert landscape with these gigantic holes in the ground. The tour guide was an engineer who assembled/disassembled nuclear weapons in the 1950s - early 1960s at the site and had witnessed dozens of detonations up close. He had amazing stories. As part of his training, he said he had to be able to disarm a nuclear warhead blindfolded. He was a real genuine guy who passed a few years ago (Ernie Williams)

 

[VonBonfire]

But hang on brother... Jesus said that there's no way to Heaven and eternal life except via Him.

In my book, that's a pretty-narrow definition and path. In addition to this, true repentance isn't for the faint-hearted.

That makes it a doubly-narrow path and for most, not an easy one. Just sayin'.

That's pretty much what I've been saying the whole time. It's a narrow, difficult path. Even monks die not knowing what will happen. "To who much is given, much is required".

 

[IndyWS6]

So you've weighed the lives, actions, and motives of hundreds of thousands of people who've existed over the course of 2,000 years and found them wanting. I would suggest you don't really understand what it means to be a saint or martyr.


I guess if I denied the internet, or running water, or electricity were real, and then paid a monthly service fee, that might be considered a form of heresy, but it doesn't really have anything to do with religion so it's not heretical in the traditional sense unless your religion is science and you were denying those things existed while using them.

I shouldn’t comment when I know I can’t respond in real time, so, apologies. I’ve been busy (pulled the deck from the ZTR to clean it and sharpen the blades). To answer your question, of course not - I haven’t …”weighed the lives, actions…”. What I find interesting is that you (and others) accept that the 2,000 year old stories are fact without having seen it for yourself, but you’ve seen pictures, video, etc that clearly (in my mind and millions of others) show that people have been in space, landed on the moon, built and detonated nuclear weapons, etc., yet you deny it. Certainly your right to do so and I wouldn’t try to convince you, but it seems hypocritical to me.

 

[VonBonfire]

I shouldn’t comment when I know I can’t respond in real time, so, apologies. I’ve been busy (pulled the deck from the ZTR to clean it and sharpen the blades). To answer your question, of course not - I haven’t …”weighed the lives, actions…”. What I find interesting is that you (and others) accept that the 2,000 year old stories are fact without having seen it for yourself, but you’ve seen pictures, video, etc that clearly (in my mind and millions of others) show that people have been in space, landed on the moon, built and detonated nuclear weapons, etc., yet you deny it. Certainly your right to do so and I wouldn’t try to convince you, but it seems hypocritical to me.

No worries on the reply time. It's just a conversation. I'm planning on making a separate thread soon. I can show you pictures of saints....does it change your view on them? You still have to believe/disbelieve the testimonials and history about their lives.

 

[IndyWS6]

No worries on the reply time. It's just a conversation. I'm planning on making a separate thread soon. I can show you pictures of saints....does it change your view on them? You still have to believe/disbelieve the testimonials and history about their lives.
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The last sentence is the key for me. I can accept that a picture shows a person that others believe to be a saint, without having seen the reason they have that title. It’s a story that requires faith to believe. On the other hand, I’ve seen rockets launch, li’ve seen pictures and video and I understand the science behind it (at a reasonable level). For me, it’s a far shorter path to “belief”.

 

[VonBonfire]

The last sentence is the key for me. I can accept that a picture shows a person that others believe to be a saint, without having seen the reason they have that title. It’s a story that requires faith to believe. On the other hand, I’ve seen rockets launch, li’ve seen pictures and video and I understand the science behind it (at a reasonable level). For me, it’s a far shorter path to “belief”.

That's the point though. I can accept that someone built a rocket, I can watch it be launched. But believing they landed on the moon isn't something that I can experience for myself so I have to take that on faith, which I don't.

 

[IndyWS6]

That's the point though. I can accept that someone built a rocket, I can watch it be launched. But believing they landed on the moon isn't something that I can experience for myself so I have to take that on faith, which I don't.

But you believe in God based solely on faith. Isn’t that contradictory from a “need to experience it for yourself” perspective?

 

[VonBonfire]

But you believe in God based solely on faith. Isn’t that contradictory from a “need to experience it for yourself” perspective?

Christ is a historical figure that even the majority of secular historians believe existed. I take it on faith that he was the son of God, backed by my own experiences, stemming from my time as an orthodox christian. So in that sense, it has been proven to me.

 

[JDs Couch]

 

[IndyWS6]

Christ is a historical figure that even the majority of secular historians believe existed. I take it on faith that he was the son of God, backed by my own experiences, stemming from my time as an orthodox christian. So in that sense, it has been proven to me.

Interesting… My perception is that your standards for “proof” vary widely for religious topics versus science, technology (and possibly other) topics. Not judging and I could be wrong…

 

[VonBonfire]

Interesting… My perception is that your standards for “proof” vary widely for religious topics versus science, technology (and possibly other) topics. Not judging and I could be wrong…

The standards def do, it's the spirit realm, so the way it's measured is different. I guess if you don't believe in the spirit realm then you could kind of discard the whole thing as a charade.

I kind of view it like a person who sees a magician as someone who spends thousands on props and costumes for a vegas show and spends a lifetime perfecting tricks using physical means. It's not magic, it's just tricks. Then there is someone who spends thousands on ancient magickal books and spends days and weeks working rituals to summon and control entities. A sorcerer. Are they real? One "magician" just a bunch of sleight of hand, not really magic at all, the other is someone working on a spirit level, if that makes sense. Some people will laugh at those ideas, and presume the occultist is just someone who took too much acid but why do people pour money and time into it, if it isn't real and doesn't actually bring about a real effect? For the practicioner, it is extremely real.

 

[JDs Couch]

The standards def do, it's the spirit realm, so the way it's measured is different. I guess if you don't believe in the spirit realm then you could kind of discard the whole thing as a charade.

I kind of view it like a person who sees a magician as someone who spends thousands on props and costumes for a vegas show and spends a lifetime perfecting tricks using physical means. It's not magic, it's just tricks. Then there is someone who spends thousands on ancient magickal books and spends days and weeks working rituals to summon and control entities. A sorcerer. Are they real? One "magician" just a bunch of sleight of hand, not really magic at all, the other is someone working on a spirit level, if that makes sense. Some people will laugh at those ideas, and presume the occultist is just someone who took too much acid but why do people pour money and time into it, if it isn't real and doesn't actually bring about a real effect? For the practicioner, it is extremely real.

This is the kind of shit your president is posting today...