Can some of the US based members ask Trump to send Rig-Talk lefties back to TGP

[Bad Brain]

Private gun ownership is not a prerequisite for being rightwing.

There was no constitutional rights or culture of owning private military weapons to raise citizen's militias in Nazi Germany. They are often considered the benchmark for extreme rightwing hence the comparison. Ownership of weapons of war in Germany was through the military which is normal.

Being conservative is about being quiet, going to church, old fashioned values, being proud of your country, fighting for your own culture and resisting hedonism and filth. It's not about wild west shoot 'em ups - that is not normal and never was in most western countries.

In America we associate conservatism with classical liberalism and varying degrees of social/cultural conservatism. The classical liberalism mostly ended with the rise of neoconservativism in the mid century. More recently American conservatism has taken on a bit more of a nationalist and populist tone.

 

[Smash]

View attachment 384545

I have always found the ignore button to be the least manly way of conducting business...I take that back. It is the report button. Ignore is second.

 

[Smash]

I think they should make gun violence illegal. Covid, too

 

[Smash]

I think the biggest disconnect isnt necessarily between left and right.

There is a great divide in people based on if they believe that they have control of the situation or not.

We litigated to or failed to litigate covid, however you look at it, but the reality is that doing something or doing nothing does not kill people to whom Covid presented no danger to.

So then we have to ask ourselves if we should shut down the world to protect the weak minority. And to the weak minority, maybe the answer is yes. But either way, show me a country that had zero covid deaths.

The same can be said with gun violence. Whether or not you want guns, if we did make them illegal, it would take years to actually get all the guns out of the hands of criminals, because they wouldn't hand them over...they don't follow law.

Add to that you have a border with mexico where guns are not illegal, and this would be a great source of guns and a good revenue for criminals and law enforcement alike. The "war on drugs" would become the "war on guns"
We could build a wall, but can we do that accross the vast coastline as well?

One cannot win a war on drugs, guns, or death. But i suppose it is a pleasant pastime. Arguing about any of them is really futile, and honestly, i dont have the solution. But what i have seen is that if we give the government a job, they usually fuck it up or overspend or both, so I would rather limit government involvement as much as possible

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Both involve a forced expulsion of a population by government agents. Both are/were supported by some of the broader population, but not all. Both involve the potential splitting of parents and children. Both create an environment of fear in some of the population and and the justification of authoritarian policies in others.

@FloydEye is right to be exasperated.

Holocaust comparisons fall flat on this issue. No death, no holocaust. Period.

No government authorized mass slaughters are happening. There are no gas chambers, firing squads or crematoriums.

hol·o·caust
[ˈhäləˌkôst, ˈhōləˌkôst, ˈhäləˌkäst, ˈhōləˌkäst]
noun
holocaust (noun) · holocausts (plural noun) · the Holocaust (noun)

1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war:
   "a nuclear holocaust" · "the threat of imminent holocaust"
   • (the Holocaust)
     the mass murder of Jewish people under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–5. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups such as Romani, gay people, and disabled people, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz.
2. historical
   a sacrifice in which the offering was burned completely on an altar.

Origin
Old English holocaustum (in sense a sacrifice or offering), via late Latin from Greek holokauston, from holos ‘whole’ + kaustos ‘burnt’ (from kaiein ‘burn’); subsequently reinforced by Old French holocauste.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

@FloydEye is right to be exasperated.

Holocaust comparisons fall flat on this issue. No death, no holocaust. Period.

No government authorized mass slaughters are happening. There are no gas chambers, firing squads or crematoriums.

hol·o·caust
[ˈhäləˌkôst, ˈhōləˌkôst, ˈhäləˌkäst, ˈhōləˌkäst]
noun
holocaust (noun) · holocausts (plural noun) · the Holocaust (noun)

1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war:
   "a nuclear holocaust" · "the threat of imminent holocaust"
   • (the Holocaust)
     the mass murder of Jewish people under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–5. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups such as Romani, gay people, and disabled people, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz.
2. historical
   a sacrifice in which the offering was burned completely on an altar.

Origin
Old English holocaustum (in sense a sacrifice or offering), via late Latin from Greek holokauston, from holos ‘whole’ + kaustos ‘burnt’ (from kaiein ‘burn’); subsequently reinforced by Old French holocauste.

No one said it was like the holocaust. But keep in mind. That only began once the deportations failed. In the current case, Mexico has already refused to land a plane full of deportees.

Where are you going to send 10 million people?

 

[PhoneyIommi]

I think the biggest disconnect isnt necessarily between left and right.

There is a great divide in people based on if they believe that they have control of the situation or not.

We litigated to or failed to litigate covid, however you look at it, but the reality is that doing something or doing nothing does not kill people to whom Covid presented no danger to.

So then we have to ask ourselves if we should shut down the world to protect the weak minority. And to the weak minority, maybe the answer is yes. But either way, show me a country that had zero covid deaths.

The same can be said with gun violence. Whether or not you want guns, if we did make them illegal, it would take years to actually get all the guns out of the hands of criminals, because they wouldn't hand them over...they don't follow law.

Add to that you have a border with mexico where guns are not illegal, and this would be a great source of guns and a good revenue for criminals and law enforcement alike. The "war on drugs" would become the "war on guns"
We could build a wall, but can we do that accross the vast coastline as well?

One cannot win a war on drugs, guns, or death. But i suppose it is a pleasant pastime. Arguing about any of them is really futile, and honestly, i dont have the solution. But what i have seen is that if we give the government a job, they usually fuck it up or overspend or both, so I would rather limit government involvement as much as possible

Banning guns is impossible of course.
However. The stark difference between gun deaths in the USA and every other comparable country is unavoidable.

Maybe you could start with some background checks and red flag laws.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

The USA has 4.31 gun deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

 

[Smash]

Banning guns is impossible of course.
However. The stark difference between gun deaths in the USA and every other comparable country is unavoidable.

Maybe you could start with some background checks and red flag laws.

I think that litigation is still grasping for control in a non controllable situation. But I could be wrong. Take a law abiding citizen. He has a gun. But his son takes his gun and shoots up school.

In my opinion, if we can get the police to stop writing speeding tickets and actually protect schools and other public places, and not get scared when something is happening, that would be a good start.
I think that one way to do it is get some of the actually well trained people out there to protect schools. I am not afraid of gun violence against myself. I am a mean motherfucker. But I worry about it against my children, who I haven't turned into mean motherfuckers just yet.

 

[Bad Brain]

Holocaust comparisons fall flat on this issue. No death, no holocaust. Period.

I said there were parallels and pointed out some similarities, not differences. I didn't say they were equivalent.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

 

[PhoneyIommi]

I think that litigation is still grasping for control in a non controllable situation. But I could be wrong. Take a law abiding citizen. He has a gun. But his son takes his gun and shoots up school.

In my opinion, if we can get the police to stop writing speeding tickets and actually protect schools and other public places, and not get scared when something is happening, that would be a good start.
I think that one way to do it is get some of the actually well trained people out there to protect schools. I am not afraid of gun violence against myself. I am a mean motherfucker. But I worry about it against my children, who I haven't turned into mean motherfuckers just yet.

The evidence is simply counterfactual to your gut feeling. For example, in Canada, I can get a gun if I want, but there is a course required and a background check. Have a look at the statistics above.

 

[Smash]

I don't think anyone is arguing that gun violence is a problem. I think the argument is the method to implement that would actually solve the issue.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

I don't think anyone is arguing that gun violence is a problem. I think the argument is the method to implement that would actually solve the issue.

What method do you suggest?

 

[Bad Brain]

I don't think anyone is arguing that gun violence is a problem. I think the argument is the method to implement that would actually solve the issue.

I think people completely overlook culture and the effects of psychotropic drugs. We've had guns in the USA for a long time.

 

[Smash]

The evidence is simply counterfactual to your gut feeling. For example, in Canada, I can get a gun if I want, but there is a course required and a background check. Have a look at the statistics above.

I understand your thought process. The problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Canada, Uk, Australia are not the US. The reason that those background checks are successful in canada is the fact that you don't have as many criminals there with guns, coupled with a lower amount of population density.

England has had guns illegal for so long that, it isn't apples to apples.

There are tons of guns in America now. The problem is a little different than just saying let's make it harder to get them legally

I agree that making it harder to get them will prevent future problems a bit. But we need to also assume that there are a ton already here in circulation that are accessible in non lawful ways and we need to address how to attack that problem equally if not greater.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

I think people completely overlook culture and the effects of psychotropic drugs. We've had guns in the USA for a long time.

Maybe. But US and Canadian culture are extremely close, and we get all the same drugs. Possibly we have fewer people on prescriptions because the profit motive isn't there to the same extent.

 

[PhoneyIommi]

I understand your thought process. The problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Canada, Uk, Australia are not the US. The reason that those background checks are successful in canada is the fact that you don't have as many criminals there with guns, coupled with a lower amount of population density.

England has had guns illegal for so long that, it isn't apples to apples.

There are tons of guns in America now. The problem is a little different than just saying let's make it harder to get them legally

I agree that making it harder to get them will prevent future problems a bit. But we need to also assume that there are a ton already here in circulation that are accessible in non lawful ways and we need to address how to attack that problem equally if not greater.

I totally get that. There's no quick fix to the guns that already exist.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

No one said it was like the holocaust. But keep in mind. That only began once the deportations failed. In the current case, Mexico has already refused to land a plane full of deportees.

Where are you going to send 10 million people?

I'm aware that things can get worse. I hope that doesn't happen.

Where they go isn't for me to decide.

I'm one of those people who has a relative who was killed by an illegal immigrant.

I've also worked with many great people who are here illegally.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.