Searching for a 3d super high gain head

[colimofsmoke]

You have to get out of your head the idea of "plug straight in" purity, especially for the kind of metal you seem to like. Their's no rules as to what you put in the front, or the loop for that matter to get what you want. It doesn't diminish a $2000 amp if you ran a boost in front and an EQ in the loop to get what you need. As long as you get what you need. JCM 800's are popular because the mid range control on them usually has a wide sweep and they respond so well to a variety of pedals. Recto's with external EQ's (loop or in front) can sound much better than straight in. If you're on a budget and time crunch I would hunt down either a 5150, JCM800 or a Recto. Choose whichever has the best straight tone you like then have at it with an EQ pedal or OD.

that's good advice. reminds me of this thing a guy at the shop said the other day. basically, that he see guys come in all the time and say, "i love this amp with the treble (gain/mids/bass/presence/whatever) all the way off."
"great, you'll take it then?"
"no, i dont want an amp where i have to turn the X knob all the way off."
"do you like the way the amp sounds when you do that?"
"yeah, it sounds f***ing great."
"THEN WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE AMP??"

i guess i was just hoping to achieve finding the sound with just an amp and guitar, more for the fun of it than anything. (although i am admittedly a bit of a minimalist when it comes to gear and owning things, as well). but maybe the AxeFX or one of the many suggested amps with a boost or pedal is really the jam. after all, what really matters is the sound you get. an AxeFX would solve the problem of most of these metal amps having way more watts than is even usable most of the time (really diezel? 180w? jeebus H!!!)

man, that ENGL SE looks badass. how's the reverb on it? and "mega lo punch?" AWESOME.

I can eventually afford a herbert or natas or whatever, but it will be a couple months, and I have shows in the meantime. a local used shop has rectos they said they'd let go for 8, and similarly priced jcm800's, so maybe i'll just do that for now, build my own cab to save dough, and save up for the herbert or whatever and sell the jcm or recto when i get it. although, who knows, maybe i'll decide i love the cheaper amp.

 

[colimofsmoke]

I may be wrong but when I think of a heavy crushing tone I don't think of 3D at all. For me, that's a mid gain/clean term. For heavy stuff I think of in your face, punch you in the chest tone.

maybe my terminology is wrong. i get a bit confused with all the amp sound terms. i just know that when i played a fryette, vht, peavey 6505, egnater vengeance, and several others, the sound was really one dimensional and uninteresting. the herbert and uberschall and knucklehead tre seem to be able to produce crushing facepunch tones that are both severely brutal and multi-dimensional, or at least more widely resonant and tonally complex.

 

[glpg80]

Guys.... if he can't afford the Herbert, how's he going to get the Natas, Engl SE, etc?

I suggest a cheap solid state amp, Crate GX130V, Ampeg VH140X/SS150, Randall V2, Warhead, RH series... all of those would be great for brutal death metal, if you're going for the typical sound in that genre. With SS amps, you could even try going out of the preamp into the interface and use some IR cabs. I did that for awhile before getting an Axe FX.

Ive recommended the Engl Savage 60, Randall X2 Warhead, and Blackstar Series 200. All capable of those tones in the right hands.

 

[colimofsmoke]

i think there's some really good suggestions in here, and i really appreciate it. you guys have given me a lot to work with, much better than trying to talk to guys in shops, which is what i was hoping. part of my problem is that many of these amps aren't anywhere to be found in Chicago, and I'd really prefer to hear it in physical space. youtube vids only go so far, all those fearedse playthroughs start sounding very similar after a while.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

To me, 3D means there is a "bloom" to the notes, almost a coloration of the tone like there's something extra going on besides the base tone of the notes. Overly tight amps lack a 3D feel in comparison to me.

 

[Spaceboy]

Guys.... if he can't afford the Herbert, how's he going to get the Natas, Engl SE, etc?

I suggest a cheap solid state amp, Crate GX130V, Ampeg VH140X/SS150, Randall V2, Warhead, RH series... all of those would be great for brutal death metal, if you're going for the typical sound in that genre. With SS amps, you could even try going out of the preamp into the interface and use some IR cabs. I did that for awhile before getting an Axe FX.

Ive recommended the Engl Savage 60, Randall X2 Warhead, and Blackstar Series 200. All capable of those tones in the right hands.

Yep, saw the Warhead X2 mention... tons of death metal bands use solid states and sound great. The so-called sterility and tightness ss amps have works perfectly in that sort of metal. Look at Dying Fetus, every record but one recorded with the Ampeg VH140C, a ~$300 or less solid state. No drive, no nothin'.

 

[Mailman1971]

tons of death metal bands use solid states and sound great. The so-called sterility and tightness ss amps have works perfectly in that sort of metal. Look at Dying Fetus, every record but one recorded with the Ampeg VH140C, a ~$300 or less solid state. No drive, no nothin'.

Yeah I had a chance to play one of these a couple years back and it was a metal machine.

 

[colimofsmoke]

ok, slight diversion here, but thoughts on the best tubes for this sound? seems like people lean towards kt88's?

 

[Spaceboy]

6L6s seem to be the usual.

 

[glpg80]

Definitely wait to get the amplifier before deciding on tubes. Choose the tubes as a way to compliment the amplifier's tone and take it a step further. Some work best with 6550's, others KT88's, others 6L6's, others EL34's

 

[Digital Jams]

Guys.... if he can't afford the Herbert, how's he going to get the Natas, Engl SE, etc?

I suggest a cheap solid state amp, Crate GX130V, Ampeg VH140X/SS150, Randall V2, Warhead, RH series... all of those would be great for brutal death metal, if you're going for the typical sound in that genre. With SS amps, you could even try going out of the preamp into the interface and use some IR cabs. I did that for awhile before getting an Axe FX.

I told him a 5150 would do fine with some grease in the loop.

After listening to your YT suggestions I say also a good old been on countless albums Recto.

 

[colimofsmoke]

yeah, i keep hearing recto. i've played a couple and thought, yeah, this works, played a couple and was like, no no no, but haven't been blown away.

and thanks for the compliment the amp with the tubes advice, i guess i was asking because some of the amps only take one kind? just a hell of a lot of info to wade through to make this decision. sometimes i feel like i can hear synapses frying when talking to the dude at MakenMusic. fwiw, the best amp i've ever had was a '69 ampeg vt-22, which i played with various OD pedals, including a 78 big muff, which sounded great. but that was when i was in a doom/drone metal project. (ducks) but i really appreciated the rich harmonics and pure tone of that anvil-weight beast, part of why i'm reluctant to go solid state or axeFX.

 

[colimofsmoke]

thanks, btw, for not scorching me for my lack of knowledge.

 

[Spaceboy]

Rectifiers aren't idiot proof in the way 5150s are. You have to really sit with one for awhile before they open up and sound great. The EQ is tricky somehow, whereas 5150s you can throw everything to noon and make it sound usable.

 

[glpg80]

Rectifiers aren't idiot proof in the way 5150s are. You have to really sit with one for awhile before they open up and sound great. The EQ is tricky somehow, whereas 5150s you can throw everything to noon and make it sound usable.

+1

Rectos i would recommend checking out would be the new "recto reborn" or "multi-watt recto's" which are a revision of the version 1 dual rectifiers. any dual rec made from 2010 on is a recto reborn.

Ref F early revision dual rectifiers are also sought after. Tremoverb heads are considered some of the best amplifiers Mesa ever created, very high in demand especially the heads, even more in demand are the earlier models. The "ractifiers" which are dual rectifiers in a rack configuration also sound great.

A darker toned recto would be a dual rec roadster, but you're getting into 1600 territory from here on up again.

As far as tubes are concerned yes, certain amplifiers cannot run certain tubes unless further modifications are done. Fortin is known for his dual bias which allows mixing of inner/outer sets of tubes for an added tonal pallet.

The blackstar series 200 would be able to run any tube you wanted, as the transformers were made to do specifically that and then some.

Personally i like a 5150 with no boost, but rectifiers? boosts, and serial effects loop conversion/EQ's in the loop are a must IMHO. definitely take some coercion to get a decent tone, up to and including swapping tubes. 5150's are touchy about tube preferences and location as well. You can make a good amplifier sound great with the right tubes, and you can make a great amp sound terrible with bad or mis-chosen tubes. It all depends on the amplifier and its personal characteristics.

 

[stratotone]

Kemper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zresYL9TQJA

 

[colimofsmoke]

Rectifiers aren't idiot proof in the way 5150s are. You have to really sit with one for awhile before they open up and sound great. The EQ is tricky somehow, whereas 5150s you can throw everything to noon and make it sound usable.

+1

Rectos i would recommend checking out would be the new "recto reborn" or "multi-watt recto's" which are a revision of the version 1 dual rectifiers. any dual rec made from 2010 on is a recto reborn.

Ref F early revision dual rectifiers are also sought after. Tremoverb heads are considered some of the best amplifiers Mesa ever created, very high in demand especially the heads, even more in demand are the earlier models. The "ractifiers" which are dual rectifiers in a rack configuration also sound great.

A darker toned recto would be a dual rec roadster, but you're getting into 1600 territory from here on up again.

As far as tubes are concerned yes, certain amplifiers cannot run certain tubes unless further modifications are done. Fortin is known for his dual bias which allows mixing of inner/outer sets of tubes for an added tonal pallet.

The blackstar series 200 would be able to run any tube you wanted, as the transformers were made to do specifically that and then some.

Personally i like a 5150 with no boost, but rectifiers? boosts, and serial effects loop conversion/EQ's in the loop are a must IMHO. definitely take some coercion to get a decent tone, up to and including swapping tubes. 5150's are touchy about tube preferences and location as well. You can make a good amplifier sound great with the right tubes, and you can make a great amp sound terrible with bad or mis-chosen tubes. It all depends on the amplifier and its personal characteristics.

thanks that's really helpful info. i did know that stuff about tubes, but the recto clarification is great. thanks.

really not digging that kemper vid sound, but maybe it's just his setttings.

 

[colimofsmoke]

found a couple framus cobras pretty close to my price range, havent had any suggestions for these yet in this thread, will they not work for some reason?

 

[glpg80]

framus version of an SLO, same ballpark as what mesa did with the rectifier, and peavey did with the 5150. all three have the circuits loosly based on the SLO.

personally i would not recommend anything framus. build quality is nowhere near Mesa or Peavey, they are both built like tanks and made in the USA. Hard to beat that reputation.

 

[rsm]

I've gone back to using rack preamps. I have a Two Notes Torpedo CAB on order (models power amps, cabs, speakers, mics and supports user IRs). I think this will be a good hybrid approach for FRFR and direct recording. I plan to add the CAB to my G-System/TriAxis direct rig that is in a 3U rack case.

Two Notes has the Live (1U rack unit) same as the CAB but also has a built in loadbox to work with tube (or other) amps.

Maybe a similar approach could be a viable option to consider?